The Galileo Seven (no relation to Blake's)

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Qonundrum, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Location:
    New York State
    I've been bothered by that every viewing, my whole life. Someone should have said that to Spock when he gave the order to waste so much ammo on a light show that meant nothing to the aliens.
     
    Scott Kellogg likes this.
  2. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    You left out the most famous tool-using animal on Earth - Homo sapiens.

    Thus your choice of tool using animals seems intended to imply that humans are entirel sepaate from the other tool using animals, and that the other tool using animals are not intelligent being or people with rights. And at the present stage of research that is uncertain.

    At the present time there is only one species on Earth which is known to be sufficiently intelligent to count as intelligent beings and people, but there are about 90 other species of large mammals which have not been ruled out as being intelligent beings and people, and which should be treated as beings with rights in the meantime. Those are the great apes,, elephants, and cetaceans.

    The one external factor visible to outsiders which sets humans apart from other species of tool uing animals on Earth is the advanced technological civilization which humans have been develoing for the last 5,000 or 10,000 years.

    And species of genus Homo, closely related to modern humans, have existed for over 2,000,000 years, and Homo sapiens itself has existed for 200,000 or 300,000 years. And for almost all of those 2,000,000 years, there were very lew, if any, externally visible factors which would have led hypothetical alien visitors from outer space to think that members of genus Homo were superior to great apes or elephants or had more rights.

    So if you wouldn't want alien visitors from outer space in prehistoric times to hunt Homo sapiens for food or sport or other reasons, you should not want those aliens to hunt great apes or elephants or whales either.

    I also point out that Spock describes the spearhead:

    Folsom points were far more advanced than the first stone tools chipped by ape men millionsof years earlier. They were used from about 9500 bC to about 8000 BC, or 11,500 t0 10,000 years ago. Used by people who were essentially identical with modern humans physically and in mental capabilities.

    So the Taurus II natives might look like Gigantopithecus, but they probably had equal mental capabilities to members of the species Homo sapiens, and thus were probably as much persons with rights as members of the species Homo sapiens .

    Note that Boma assumes the natives have a tribal culture, and then Spock says that they appear to be a pre tribal culture. And then Boma ignores Spock's correction and assumes that the natives are tribal and comes up with a plan to attack the natives, assuming that the plan will work due to the assumed tribal culture of the natives.

    Boma's plan to attack first is based on two assumptions:

    1) that members of a tribal culture will retreat in dismay if attacked.

    2) that the natives have a tribal culture.

    And Spock has already corrected Boma that the natives seem to be non tribal.

    So there doesn't seem to be much inellectual justification for Boma's suggestion of a premptive strike against the natives. Especially since just a minute earlier Boma had hopefully suggested that the natives were not planning to attack.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  3. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Spock retained his 'humanity' as it were and refrained from actually killing any of the creatures! Even though they murdered two of his team in the encounter! :vulcan:
    JB
     
  4. Scott Kellogg

    Scott Kellogg Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2021
    Location:
    USA
    No, I simply provided you with a (partial) list of animals that are intelligent enough to use tools.
    The above interpretation is purely yours.

    If you wish to use tool use as a criteria for determining if an (alien) creature is intelligent enough to deserve legal protection, I'm afraid I think you need to look at the bigger picture.

    My wife is a farmer. I work with animals all the time. I can tell you they're far more intelligent than people give credit, and they all have individual personalities. Even the absolute stereotype of an "dumb animal": a flock of sheep. Those are not dumb mindless eating machines, they're a collection of individuals with likes/dislikes/curiosities/preferences/greeds/generosities/friends/enemies/fears. Cows are even smarter than that.

    While I've never worked with Elephants, I've heard their intelligence described. You listen to people dealing with Wild Elephants trying to keep them out of their fields and you'll hear them described 'Do not think of them as animals. Think of them as Enemies.' They plan, they plot, they act in coordinated fashion when they're raiding a human granary. (Geez, and you thought rats were hard to deal with!)

    Now, despite knowing that animals have personalities, I'm still going to eat steaks, burgers and the occasional lamb stew. They come from someone else's animals. Your ethical food choices are yours.

    As for Tribal/non-Tribal, both Spock and Boma are engaging in pure speculation. The sophistication of a tool has nothing to do with if it comes from a tribe or not. Any creature that works together in a coordinated fashion is essentially a tribe. Doesn't matter if they're humans, apes, elephants, hyenas, dogs, wolves or giant anthropoid creatures from another planet. If they're social enough to work together, they're a tribe, and you can't make a further judgment on how tightly knit that tribe is from a stone spear.

    As far as the Folsom Point goes, well, I'm not an expert in stone tools, but I recall reading that Spock's identification of the spear as a Folsom Point was in error. The prop they used was actually closer to a Clovis point. So, Spock may sound convincing, but he really didn't know what he was talking about. Spock, with his blind eye toward non-Vulcans, is absolutely the wrong person to be evaluating the psychological nature of these creatures. He barely understands primitive humans as it is!
     
    ZapBrannigan likes this.
  5. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    One ferry ride from Starfleet HQ
    Blame the non-Folsom point on the prop department.
     
    BK613 likes this.
  6. BK613

    BK613 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2008
    Location:
    North Texbanistan
    One should distinguish between tool-using and tool-making. Birds and fish using rocks to open shellfish is tool-use. Working stone into a point and wood into a straight shaft and then combining the two results into a weapon is tool-making. The first could denote sapience, the latter definitely does.
     
    Scott Kellogg likes this.
  7. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Location:
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    True--there was no malice in the crew's reactions.

    Because the Phaser beams striking any surface had to be destructive, so the observing creatures would associate the beam with a threatening event. Of course, the creatures reacted to this would-be deterrent with anger and--as McCoy pointed out--did not respect the superior weapons, as they were not behaving rationally.
     
    Scott Kellogg and Henoch like this.
  8. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    Grace Lee Whitney calls this one of her two "least favourite episodes". It was the fourteenth episode filmed after her thirteen-episode contract was not renewed. The name "Rand" had been scratched out for "Mears". Although Mears didn't get to do too much.

    (Her other least favourite was "Dagger of the Mind". Supposedly an early draft had Rand in it, and the role was rewritten for Helen Noel. Grace had been hoping it would be a meaty part for her.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
    Scott Kellogg likes this.
  9. Scott Kellogg

    Scott Kellogg Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2021
    Location:
    USA
    Here's an example of multi-part tool making and use in Crows:
    https://www.sciencealert.com/crows-are-so-smart-they-can-make-compound-tools-out-of-multiple-parts

    In order to get a food treat out of a puzzle box, a crow puts together a combination of sticks and straws to create a longer stick that will reach the treat.

    Let's put tool use and sapience questions aside for the moment to ask the critical question:
    Assume the giants *are* sapient. Or, better still, remove their alien characteristics from the whole equation by asking the same question of humans.

    Imagine for the moment, that these aren't murderous, xenophobic aliens who you can't approach or communicate with, but a tribe of murderous, xenophobic humans who you can't approach or communicate with...

    The tribe attacks without provocation and kills one of the crew.
    Do the crew have the right to fight back?
     
    BK613 and ZapBrannigan like this.
  10. alchemist

    alchemist Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Neither did Rand. There's very little difference between the Rand and Mears parts when you compare the first and last script drafts. In fact, I'm not sure why they kept the part in (of course, then the episode would have been called "The Galileo Six").

    Yes, Rand was in the early drafts and she figured prominently. But, and contrary to what's bandied about the internet (and certain podcasts), the Rand part was rewritten for the new Noel character -- they simply didn't white-out the occurrences of Rand and write Noel over them.
     
  11. Scott Kellogg

    Scott Kellogg Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2021
    Location:
    USA
    Because writing the only female character out would take away from the story.
     
    Therin of Andor likes this.
  12. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    Trek's female yeoman were traditionally eye candy. Even the Writers' Guide for TOS and "Star Trek II" ("Phase II") suggest that.

    Re "Dagger of the Mind":
    I never said they did, and neither did Grace. I said "rewritten". Noel was a scientist and brought a different set of skills to the episode. Although she was also eye candy.
     
  13. alchemist

    alchemist Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    I looked at the third revision of the TOS guide and I don't see that suggested there. I see they suggested that the yeomen were lovely, but not "something superficially attractive to look at" as found in a typical definition of "eye candy." Here's an excerpt from the third revision guide: "Played by a succession of young actresses, always lovely. One such character has been well established in the first year, "YEOMAN JANICE RAND", played by the lovely Grace Lee Whitney. Whether Yeoman Rand or a new character provided by the writer, this female Yeoman serves Kirk as his combination Executive Secretary-Valet-Military Aide. As such, she is always capable, a highly professional career girl. As with all female Crewman aboard, during duty hours she is treated co-equal with males of the same rank, and the same level of efficient performance is expected..."

    Don't know about the STII guide. Not the subject here.

    YMMV.

    Re "Dagger of the Mind":


    I didn't say you or Grace did. I said the internet and certain podcasts.
     
  14. Scott Kellogg

    Scott Kellogg Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2021
    Location:
    USA
    Just out of curiosity:
    What rank IS a Yeoman?
    In the real world, Yeomen are enlisted.
    Rand never did have a stripe on her sleeve.
    Kind of puts another bullet in the foot of the old myth "Starfleet only has officers."
     
  15. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Especially since Tina Lawton is identified as "yeoman third class" in "Charlie X."

    In a STTMP production memo, it was made clear that Rand was a chief petty officer, so almost certainly a petty officer of some grade in TOS.
     
    Henoch and Scott Kellogg like this.
  16. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Back On The Shelf
    Wearing blue (sciences), I would put Yeoman Lawton as a Lab Technician in one of the fourteen science labs, or possibly an assistant (secretary) to one of the Scientists.
     
    Scott Kellogg likes this.
  17. Scott Kellogg

    Scott Kellogg Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2021
    Location:
    USA
    I'm not sure, but I believe "Yeoman" is a position, like navigator, or helmsman, not a rank.
    So, she's probably working as a Yeoman in a lab, rather than a tech.

    If I recall correctly, the lab techs were referred to as "Technician" as in "Geological Technician Fisher" from "The Enemy Within."
     
  18. scotpens

    scotpens scotpens Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2009
    Location:
    The Left Coast
    Technically it's a rating -- i.e., an occupation or job specialty. Yeomen in today's navy perform administrative and clerical work. They may hold the rank of Seaman Recruit all the way up to Master Chief, depending on length of service and experience.
     
    Scott Kellogg likes this.
  19. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    One ferry ride from Starfleet HQ
    Then it would be Five Four Came Back. :D
     
    Scott Kellogg likes this.
  20. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    And assuming that yeoman classes go down with rank, Lawton would be 2 steps below a first class yeoman, fitting with being said (by Rand) to be the same age as 17-year-old Charlie. Conversely, if yeaoman classes go up with rank, Lawton would already be two steps above a yeoman first class.

    And a while ago this was discussed on a thread and someone said that in the US navy yeoman classes go up with rank and a yeoman third class is several steps above a new recruit.