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My DS9 Rewatch Odyssey

2.

I hate this episode. It's a cheesy rehash of Rapture, albeit with a half-baked mythology borrowed from the cliches of Zoroastrianism's conflict between good and evil. I'm sure that the actors were trying their best, but without something to cling to, the performances don't even reach Shatner at his worst. In the end, separating themselves from the conflict between the Prophets and the Pah Wraiths was necessary and prudent, so using the chronoton device was the right thing to do (even if Winn had ulterior motives). If they wanted Winn to be a villain again, they should have done so in a way that did not make her seem so weak. Finally, I hate that this episode hamstrung the rest of the series with this mythology, which would also come to affect Dukat's character.

I would burn this episode in the Fire Caves.
 
One can understand Winn's jealousy of Sisko, imagine you have risen to the head of your religion only to be usurped by the arrival of one of your key religious icons and to top it off they aren't even Bajoran. As for Winn's actions it futher demonstrates that she isn't a true believer she is only using her position to gain power.
 
I largely look at this episode as a treatise on faith, and specifically, which of our characters have it and which don't. IIRC, I was genuinely surprised that it was Kai Winn who activated the chroniton field (as for concerns as to how she could have done so, I imagine Dax might have set up a macro or such; generally console interfaces in the 24th century seems to be pretty user-friendly). I found it sad (for her) but also telling that it's Winn who does what none of our heroes were willing to do; it's one thing for her to be self-involved and driven by her ambition, but it's another to learn that she doesn't even have faith in the Prophets, and yet she's the highest religious official on Bajor.

I can't imagine Jake being upset with Ben after this. While it's not explicitly shown, I'd like to think they must have had conversations about the Prophets and Ben's relationship with them before, and that Jake would understand why Ben was willing to put his faith in them.

I've always found Winn a character I could understand and feel bad for, even if the ways in which she acts on her feelings frequently cross the line. I'd hoped that by the end of the series she'd find some sense of genuine redemption (though not without potential legal consequences!).

I've also interpreted this episode as one where, if Winn hadn't interfered, the Prophet would have triumphed and the events to follow would have been substantially different. So, I just find this episode ultimately to be a bit of a tragedy for everyone. A tragedy for Winn, a tragedy for our characters, a tragedy for what might have been for Bajor and who knows how many other people.
 
Great review! How do you like it when Kai Winn is the reasonable one? I mean she chose the status-quo over a possible win of the Pah-Wraiths and who could blame her? Her reasons? I don't know maybe she was beginning to be fed up with the prophets treating her like dirt. So she (on an unconscious level) did this partly as an act of defiance of the prophets. The way I see it the prophets are definitely partly responsible for Kai Winn defecting to the Pah-Wraiths camp in the end. Had they treated her just a little bit better she might have resisted their appeal. The prophets seem to specialize in self-fulfilling prophecies. Plus they mind raped Sisko's biological mother to force her to be with a man she didn't love and no one in the series seems to realize that, least of all Sisko himself. So I have a hard time thinking of them as the "good gods"...
 
Ananta, you wrote on the previous page that TOS was your favorite series, just wondered if you have any similar threads on that forum. These reviews are so engaging! I'd be interested to see what you thought of the early episodes.
 
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I don't know maybe she was beginning to be fed up with the prophets treating her like dirt.
It brings up an interesting question: how does one exercise agency in the context of a religious system? Even if the Prophets are the "Good guys" (or good gods, I guess), why is it necessary to comply with them? Cannot people forge their own paths, even those involved in the religion?
 
Great review! How do you like it when Kai Winn is the reasonable one? I mean she chose the status-quo over a possible win of the Pah-Wraiths and who could blame her? Her reasons? I don't know maybe she was beginning to be fed up with the prophets treating her like dirt. So she (on an unconscious level) did this partly as an act of defiance of the prophets. The way I see it the prophets are definitely partly responsible for Kai Winn defecting to the Pah-Wraiths camp in the end. Had they treated her just a little bit better she might have resisted their appeal. The prophets seem to specialize in self-fulfilling prophecies. Plus they mind raped Sisko's biological mother to force her to be with a man she didn't love and no one in the series seems to realize that, least of all Sisko himself. So I have a hard time thinking of them as the "good gods"...

THe prophets didn't really treat her like dirt, they simply didn't interact with her at all? How many previous Kai's did they interact with? If they didn't interact with many or any previous Kai's why would she be an exception?
 
THe prophets didn't really treat her like dirt, they simply didn't interact with her at all? How many previous Kai's did they interact with? If they didn't interact with many or any previous Kai's why would she be an exception?

I think they must have interacted with Kai Opaka, how else would she have known that Sisko was to be the Emissary? Not to mention the last time when they told her to get stranded forever on a moon where people can't die.
 
Her reasons? I don't know maybe she was beginning to be fed up with the prophets treating her like dirt. So she (on an unconscious level) did this partly as an act of defiance of the prophets. The way I see it the prophets are definitely partly responsible for Kai Winn defecting to the Pah-Wraiths camp in the end. Had they treated her just a little bit better she might have resisted their appeal.

Well, that rather depends on the religious belief system you subscribe to, doesn't it? Are you religious because you anticipate a reward in this life or the next, or are you religious because you've already been given a reward in the form of your life as it currently exists? If you're religious because you anticipate a reward, does that make your motives inherently corrupt?

I'm Agnostic though ethnically Jewish (and I did get my Bar Mitzvah), and in a fit of stress and anxiety I once "prayed" to God that if I missed a plane flight I needed to catch that I'd never believe in God. I ended up catching the flight, but that didn't change much for me...but then, I'd never claimed I'd believe in God if I caught the flight. It probably wouldn't have changed much for me spiritually if I hadn't caught the flight either, as I don't think I've become more or less spiritual in the 14 years since that moment.

Do the Prophets owe Winn anything? They didn't ask for her faith, and they didn't promise any benefits in return for it. Sure, if they'd given her an Orb vision or such then things might have gone otherwise. OTOH, perhaps the Prophets knew it wouldn't make a difference, or perhaps they knew that doing so would lead to a worse timeline.

In the end, I personally feel that genuine faith means that you have to have faith in your gods, and that extends to them doing things that you may find inexplicable, or even doing (apparently) nothing at all. But if gods are out there, then one has to assume that even them doing nothing is them choosing to do nothing.
 
Well, that rather depends on the religious belief system you subscribe to, doesn't it? Are you religious because you anticipate a reward in this life or the next, or are you religious because you've already been given a reward in the form of your life as it currently exists? If you're religious because you anticipate a reward, does that make your motives inherently corrupt?

I'm Agnostic though ethnically Jewish (and I did get my Bar Mitzvah), and in a fit of stress and anxiety I once "prayed" to God that if I missed a plane flight I needed to catch that I'd never believe in God. I ended up catching the flight, but that didn't change much for me...but then, I'd never claimed I'd believe in God if I caught the flight. It probably wouldn't have changed much for me spiritually if I hadn't caught the flight either, as I don't think I've become more or less spiritual in the 14 years since that moment.

Do the Prophets owe Winn anything? They didn't ask for her faith, and they didn't promise any benefits in return for it. Sure, if they'd given her an Orb vision or such then things might have gone otherwise. OTOH, perhaps the Prophets knew it wouldn't make a difference, or perhaps they knew that doing so would lead to a worse timeline.

In the end, I personally feel that genuine faith means that you have to have faith in your gods, and that extends to them doing things that you may find inexplicable, or even doing (apparently) nothing at all. But if gods are out there, then one has to assume that even them doing nothing is them choosing to do nothing.

Interestingly enough I got my solemn communion which is more or less the Catholic version of a Bar Mitzvah, plus it occurs pretty much at the same age. I am an Atheist though and have been for as long as I can remember. I only went through the rituals because I knew it would chagrin my mother if I didn't. So I do something that means nothing to me and costs me nothing but it pleases her. I'd be a callous fool to do otherwise.

I wasn't talking about faith of which I know nothing but about hypocrisy. The prophets punished Winn in advance for something that they ultimately caused her to do.. If they should blame anyone, it should be themselves. If they really care about people as they pretend to do then they should help the ones who go astray to get back to the right path instead of pushing them further away, making a bad situation worse. They talk about forgiveness (Kira said something about it in an episode) but seem incapable of applying that to themselves. That's why I don't consider them to be the good gods in a fictional world where gods exist.
 
I think you may be commingling what the Bajorans have claimed about the Prophets with what the Prophets have themselves claimed.

I don't think the Prophets took any notice of Winn, or perhaps they did take notice and intentionally never showed themselves to her for reasons that aren't explicitly clear to us, but I suspect the same holds true for the vast majority of Bajorans. There certainly seems to be some level of privilege within the Bajoran religious system, as not everyone who asks for one is allowed to have a session with an Orb (whether or not it leads to a vision).

I wonder what might have happened if Winn had ever gone through the Wormhole. If she had encountered the Prophets, I suspect they would have been cordial in the same way you're cordial with coworkers whom you neither like nor dislike.

My point being, maybe if the Prophets had been "nicer" to Winn then things might have turned out differently. Or maybe they wouldn't have, or maybe they would have turned out worse for everyone, potentially including Winn herself. We don't know and we don't have enough information to hazard an educated guess. I just don't see Winn as having been "punished", unless by "punished" one means treated the same way as the vast majority of Bajorans. And I don't recall any situation in which the Prophets were shown to have a significant interest in Bajor except when Sisko asked them to.
 
I think you may be commingling what the Bajorans have claimed about the Prophets with what the Prophets have themselves claimed.

I don't think the Prophets took any notice of Winn, or perhaps they did take notice and intentionally never showed themselves to her for reasons that aren't explicitly clear to us, but I suspect the same holds true for the vast majority of Bajorans. There certainly seems to be some level of privilege within the Bajoran religious system, as not everyone who asks for one is allowed to have a session with an Orb (whether or not it leads to a vision).

I wonder what might have happened if Winn had ever gone through the Wormhole. If she had encountered the Prophets, I suspect they would have been cordial in the same way you're cordial with coworkers whom you neither like nor dislike.

My point being, maybe if the Prophets had been "nicer" to Winn then things might have turned out differently. Or maybe they wouldn't have, or maybe they would have turned out worse for everyone, potentially including Winn herself. We don't know and we don't have enough information to hazard an educated guess. I just don't see Winn as having been "punished", unless by "punished" one means treated the same way as the vast majority of Bajorans. And I don't recall any situation in which the Prophets were shown to have a significant interest in Bajor except when Sisko asked them to.

Let's not forget that as a Kai, Winn was the only one with access to the book and therefore who was able to release the Pah-Wraiths, which is the only reason the Pah-wraiths included her in their plans since they didn't seem to care for her otherwise. She wasn't just any Bajoran and so the Prophets would have been well advised to take notice of that. If someone has your fate in their hands, frustrating them, isn't your best option.
 
But that assumes that having Winn gain access to the book and potentially release the Pah-Wraiths wasn't part of the Prophets' plan all along.
 
Leading Sisko to go to the Fire Caves for his showdown with Dukraith. Which in turn had him fully brought into the Celestial Temple... his pennance for "SACRIFICE OF ANGELS".
 
Interestingly enough I got my solemn communion which is more or less the Catholic version of a Bar Mitzvah, plus it occurs pretty much at the same age. I am an Atheist though and have been for as long as I can remember. I only went through the rituals because I knew it would chagrin my mother if I didn't. So I do something that means nothing to me and costs me nothing but it pleases her. I'd be a callous fool to do otherwise.

I wasn't talking about faith of which I know nothing but about hypocrisy. The prophets punished Winn in advance for something that they ultimately caused her to do.. If they should blame anyone, it should be themselves. If they really care about people as they pretend to do then they should help the ones who go astray to get back to the right path instead of pushing them further away, making a bad situation worse. They talk about forgiveness (Kira said something about it in an episode) but seem incapable of applying that to themselves. That's why I don't consider them to be the good gods in a fictional world where gods exist.

But are they gods? The Bajoran's believe them to be gods but that doesn't make them gods, we've seen beings who once visited Earth and were worshipped as the Greek gods but they were just a far more advanced race of beings than the people of Earth. But isn't the episode "The Reckoning" about faith, Sisko had faith in the prophets Winn did not, now was that because he had interacted with and she hadn't perhaps. But then again to Sisko they are likely just another advanced alien race whilst to Winn they are the Bajoran's gods, you would exepct the later to have faith. For people who are religious do they require proof or interaction with their god(s) existance for them to believe? I would say they do not
 
Sisko had faith in the prophets Winn did not, now was that because he had interacted with and she hadn't perhaps. But then again to Sisko they are likely just another advanced alien race whilst to Winn they are the Bajoran's gods, you would exepct the later to have faith
For Sisko, aren't the Prophets both wormhole aliens and gods by the end? He never expressed the latter directly, but he allows himself to be the instrument by which they realize their plans for Bajor. He supports and defends their claims to the hearts and minds of Bajorans. By the end, Sisko is practically a convert. He is their Emissary.
 
For Sisko, aren't the Prophets both wormhole aliens and gods by the end? He never expressed the latter directly, but he allows himself to be the instrument by which they realize their plans for Bajor. He supports and defends their claims to the hearts and minds of Bajorans. By the end, Sisko is practically a convert. He is their Emissary.

Isn't he revealed to be one of them? So a lack of faith on his part would just be a lack of self-confidence.;)

*He even understands (in the end) what the heck is meant by "nonlinear"...
 
Isn't he revealed to be one of them? So a lack of faith on his part would just be a lack of self-confidence.;)

*He even understands (in the end) what the heck is meant by "nonlinear"...
He is revealed to them and they interfere in his birth. He still has his agency, and nonlinearity allows him to have made other choices in his life.
 
“VALIANT”

valiant6.jpg


Welp, that couldn’t have happened to a nicer bunch of people...

I apologise in advance if you’re a fan of this one, but I’m not going to sugarcoat it: I hate this episode. It remains one of my least favourite episodes of the show’s run; one I’d quite happily see expunged from existence along with the Ferengi shitfest that follows it. I tried to rewatch with as open a mind as I could muster, but I struggled to sit through the full 45 minutes without feeling bored, angry and kinda depressed.

The basic premise is misconceived and full of plot holes the size of a black hole. For a start, it makes no sense to me that Starfleet can spare a Defiant-class ship to ferry cadets across the Federation, even if they are “RED SQUAD!! RED SQUAD!! RED SQUAD!” (Henceforth, I’m calling them the Hitler Youth). It’s a real stretch that all the command officers just happen to be killed and that its Captain, Ramirez, would then promote a cadet to a Captain field commission and tell him to carry on with the mission and avoid all contact with Starfleet (why non-communication with Starfleet is a stipulation is never explained). I don’t buy a word of it; not one word.

Perhaps Waters is lying and Ramirez ordered him to take the Valiant back home and to let Starfleet know what had happened to its officers. This is never implied in the actual episode, however, so I don’t think that was the writers’ intention, but the idea that these cadets could just carry on jaunting about on the Valiant without informing Starfleet is just insane. It’s kinda like a teenager test-driving their parents’ car, only to get into an accident which kills all the adults in the car, and they then carrying on driving around for the next nine months without informing anyone, all to prove how awesome they are.

I could perhaps buy the premise if the Valiant was in a Voyager-type situation; far from Federation space, isolated, out of communications range and struggling to get back. But they’re practically a stone’s throw away from both the starbase Nog and Jake start out from and presumably Ferenginar, where the boys were headed. Why has the Valiant been behind enemy lines for nine months with the implication they were somehow fighting a lone battle? Why didn’t they encounter other starships and why the HECK doesn’t Starfleet realise the Valiant is missing and have all ships on alert for it? They need all the ships they can get—particularly, you’d think, Defiant-class ships, and they need them manned with, well...actual officers with experience in combat! If Starfleet Command knew that a bunch of cultish kids with a God complex were hopping about and deliberately not contacting HQ, there would be hell to pay. The Valiant apparently couldn’t limp above warp three and, unlike the Defiant, surely doesn’t have a cloaking device. How did they get away with this for nine months? None of it makes any sense to me.

It wouldn’t be so bad if the characterisation hadn’t been so dreadful. Ron Moore was clearly aiming for “LORD OF THE FLIES” in space, and the result is one of the most straight-up cynical and downright unpleasant episodes of Star Trek I’ve ever seen. The closest I can think of are the VOYAGER episodes where the writers created a duplicate of the Voyager crew just so they could torture and eventually kill them. I find that kind of cynicism objectionable, particularly in Star Trek. Whatever Moore was aiming for, he fails. In a way, I feel he’s already told this story before, and much more effectively, in TNG’s “The First Duty”. Although those cadets got ideas above their station and fucked up royally, at least they felt like human beings, including proto-Tom Paris. Not so here. While in Dorien we have at least one crew member who seems human and relatable, the rest are repellent—and if these are the best and brightest Starfleet has to offer...well, they deserve to lose the war. I, for one, would welcome our Dominion overlords!

What we see is a cult of personality, with the crew essentially deifying Waters, the pill-popping James Kirk-wannabe who, out of his desire for victory and fame, leads them to their own deaths. The worst part is I found them all so awful that I had very little sympathy for their fate. The episode was clearly intended as a tragedy, but the tragedy fell utterly flat for me because I just didn’t care about any of them in the slightest. Waters had superficial charisma but was clearly from the Dukat school of narcissism and egomania, and I’m still convinced that his henchwoman-cum-First Officer, Miss “Wet Pasta”, was Admiral Nechayev’s equally acid-tongued granddaughter.

Nog and Jake don’t get off the hook, either, particularly Nog, who needed a good, hard slap. While it was already established in the fourth season that Nog was a Red Squad/Hitler Youth fanboy, the moment he stepped aboard the Valiant he outranked them as an actual officer and should have taken command and ordered the ship back to Starfleet. That’s not what happens. Nog goes weak at the knees when Waters offers him a place in the cult and he spends the rest of the episode being an obtuse idiot. Jake tries to get through to him, but unfortunately even Jake doesn’t come across as entirely likeable either—having by now descended into the “obnoxious journalist” stereotype (if he says “the public deserve to know” ONE more time...!) He offers a smugly-delivered speech about his dad that only riles up the Hitler Youth even more. At least, however, he’s the lone voice of reason in the entire episode. I get that this episode can be seen as part of Nog’s journey from over-eager cadet to broken, disillusioned Starfleet officer, but I found him so annoyingly stupid I almost wish he’d gone down with the ship.

Any points the episode scores are largely down to the impressive effects and pyrotechnics. The usually brilliant Michael Vejar is directing, but even he flounders this time around. The pace is rather limp and there’s one particularly terrible piece of directing and/or editing featuring montage of the crew getting ready for battle while Waters slowly spins in his chair trying to look commanding. I stifle a grimace each time I see that, because the lame directing and crappy score made seem like something straight out of a parody like “POLICE ACADEMY”. Alas, seeing the ship pummelled to bits had no impact on me whatsoever, I guess because I didn’t buy the basic story and I thoroughly disliked the crew. I also realised that I’m so OVER generic Star Trek battle scenes where sparks fly across the bridge (why can’t they put circuit breakers on the damned consoles?) and people are instantly killed simply by being knocked out of their seat. It’s also ridiculous that the ONLY survivors are our two regular characters and the one guest character we bonded with. It would have felt more natural had there been at least a few more Valiant survivors.

As you’ve no doubt noticed, this episode gets me riled, which not many episodes do. I just couldn’t buy the massively contrived story; the characterisation was terrible, the performances weak, and the basic cynicism of the script truly rubbed me the wrong way. DS9 has gone all out to show the darker and less than ideal side of Starfleet and human nature this season—and if the execution is good (hello “In the Pale Moonlight”), I’m all for that. This was just a step too far for me. The usually excellent Ron Moore really dropped the ball on this script, even as he seemed to be test-driving some of the ideas and themes he’d incorporate in “BATTLESTAR GALACTICA”, a series far better suited to such depressing nihilism than Star Trek—including even DS9 at its darkest. I’m afraid, for me, this barely scrapes a Rating: 3
 
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There is one thing of this episode that I truly enjoyed and it's your analysis of it, great job! I am afraid I'd be even more critical of this episode as you are and that says something. The red squad idiots were supposed to be superior cadets, one would have credited them with at least an above-average IQ, well one would have been wrong in this case. What a bunch of twits! Waters just broke to give birth to this poor excuse for a scenario. We get all the cliches plus one here and you're so right that Nog should have asserted his REAL rank and ordered the clown in the big chair to turn his ship around get it to HQ where it could be used by real officers. Although I am not sure Waters would have complied. It's funny how many shots were necessary by this behemoth of a ship to destroy the Valliant when one single shot from Dukat destroyed a bird of prey!!

There one thing that I find ridiculous and that's the escape pods in battle, they are useless!! I mean just think of it, they are much slower and much more fragile than a starship so what will they gonna do except give the weapon guy a little target practice. That detail also made me laugh in Star Trek 2009, I mean why would Nero let the escape pods,... escape? Because daddy Kirk, distracted him for ten seconds with his tiny ship? Get out of there!

I mean the escape pods may make sense in case of an accident that makes the ship unable to sustain life but in battle, they are just stupid.

I mean if the Titanic had been attacked instead of hit by an iceberg, do you think the people on the boats would have survived? See what I mean?
 
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