Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

[1987SpaceGuy]

I've enjoyed this episode a lot,

"you aren't gonna move your seat forward"
Bucky telling Sam "the breakout story" while seeing it happen, was hilarious.
Also them bickering and "shutting" Zemo up.

I too expect Zemo to betray them at any time. Was pleasantly surprised he didn't ...yet.
Would be good, if there was more to the suprise-Ayo-appereance and Bucky and not only a Zemo connection.

Sharon is a skilled fighter, but damn she seemingly changed a lot, maybe even switched sides?!
Kinda understand where she's coming from after how she's been treated or "neglected" by Cap's friends and the good S.H.I.E.L.D remains and the goverment.

So did the GRC or whatever their name is, just hoard the redquired goods for themseleves, instead of passing them to the vulnerable people?

Also, lost any sympathy developped for Carli after them blowing up that house/center with the people inside.

 

[Paul Weaver]

So did people who previously lived in unblipped houses get booted out, and blippers had their property rights and jobs restored?

sounds a bit weird to me, I could understand issues with those returning from the blip fitting in with missing jobs, homes, money etc, but the other way round?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I watched the first episode. I like it, very strong leads.

Am I a dork that I'm watching comic book movies and liking the character development more than the action scenes? Not that there's anything wrong with the action scenes, just a lot of Marvel films have the issue of not having any down pacing in between the fight scenes.

I appreciate the way they're at least giving mention to the fact they spent five years contracting the world infrastructure and then HEY, population re-doubles overnight and none of them have jobs! And we uhh, distributed their finances to their next of kin already. Oops.

 

[wayoung]

Well, either Sharon is the Power Broker or she's a red herring to make us think she's the power broker

 

[Reverend]

The situation with Sharon has me wondering. Clearly all is not what it seems and while I can think of a few possibilities, I can't quite zero in on what's going on. It all depends on whether she's still on the side of the angels.

Probably the most salient detail is that her showing up when she did right after the fence was offed is fishier than a family reunion on Mon Cala. She's also obviously not a lone wolf operator, so something bigger is going on.
The way I see it she's either working for the Power Broker (or IS the Power Broker!) and is piggy backing Sam & Bucky's operation in hopes of flushing out the Flag Smashers and getting the serum back. Or, she's actually working undercover for Fury...and is pretty much doing the same thing but for not evil reasons (i.e. making sure *nobody* gets their hands on a stable serum.)

While it's certainly possible she's become as jaded as she appears, I feel like the latter option makes more sense to me, largely because it seems odd that she would have just been abandoned by *everyone* after CACW. Even ignoring AoS (which they almost certainly are here) we know Fury has been operating in the shadows this whole time, and has scooped up at least a few former SHIELD agents (and a helicarrier.) Indeed given how Monica's story ended on Wandavision I feel like this could be connecting thread between most of these shows.

 

[Xerxes82]

Well, either Sharon is the Power Broker or she's a red herring to make us think she's the power broker

My money is undercover working for the CIA, or some other group trying to track the Power Broker. Her resentful backstory is just totally believable enough that it would make an excellent cover. In plain sight, doing spy things. And the reason she can't break cover with Sam and Bucky is clear enough, Zemo. He has connections that could burn her, hard.

She could turn out to be a villain yet, that would be disappointing. But I think the pieces are in place for her to be working with somebody else, and still on the same side as the boys.

 

[thribs]

They really did push the violence in this episode. It wouldn’t surprise me if the BBFC rate it a 15.

 

[Noname Given]

Well, either Sharon is the Power Broker or she's a red herring to make us think she's the power broker

Or she's again undercover for some U.S. Intelligence Agency (Which might explain why she so quickly jumped to Sam's aid once the contract was out.

All that said, this for me so far is the weakest episode of the 3 to date. It does have some good bits; but yeah (IMO) there was a lot of coincidence/luck breaks as needed for the plot to move forward; but with only 6 episodes, there's no time to not move the plot fast I guess.

My big complaint in that regard is Zemo so easily reconnecting with his underground network after being 'out of circulation for nearly a decade. Also, where did Zemo suddenly being an integral part of the Russian Winter Soldier program come from? Yes, he was a part of his country's intelligence arm, but it was pretty clear everything he did WRT getting info on the Russian program was to get revenge on the Avengers for letting his family die. He wanted to turn the two leaders (Steve and Tony) against each other and watch the chaos as the Avengers destroyed themselves or became wanted/hunted criminals. He was even ready to kill himself once he realized the plan failed.
^^^
Now that's not to say they haven't done well in making him a villain more in line with the original Marvel Comics (although that would be impossible as the original Zemo was a WWII era German Nazi and as old as Steve Rogers and kept alive via a version of the super soldier serum); but it's a pretty speedy/whiplash of a retcon here for the MCU.

I did like that they are bringing elements of Wakanda into this - and not just glossing over/burying the fact Bucky spent time there and made connections there too it seems. I wonder if (in the MCU) they're going top show Zemo had something to do with T'Challa's death/disappearance depending on how they want to handle the tragic and all to early loss of Chadwick Boseman (f**k cancer).

Still very interesting, and looking forward to episode 4.

 

[thribs]

Wouldn’t make much sense if she’s the power broker. I imagine Zemo will be by the end

 

[Xerxes82]

Also, where did Zemo suddenly being an integral part of the Russian Winter Soldier program come from?

I think you're confusing things based on Zemo's line about ending the Winter Soldier program? Everything Zemo knows he got from the HYDRA files Natasha released at the end of Winter Soldier.

Zemo IS an expert on HYDRA's Winter Soldier program, because it was the focus of his plan to destroy the Avengers. But he didn't have anything to do with the program, save for being the man who literally ended it. By shooting them all in the head, in their tanks, during the climax of Civil War.

 

[Anwar]

When Zemo said he knew about the Winter Soldier program, he meant all the research he'd done into figuring out Hydra's secrets to find something he could use against the Avengers.

It's interesting how he's basically become an Evil Batman. His motivation is the death of his family, he's rich and well connected, has his own loyal butler, etc...

...and is it bad that I felt he had a point about the problem with investing too much in Icons?

 

[Xerxes82]

I'm thinking about the questions I still have.

We still don't know where Isaiah's serum came from. If the new serum was derived from studying Isaiah's blood, that explains the new version, but not the old. So how did Isaiah wind up a super soldier?

How did Karli even know the PB had the serum? And how did she steal it from him?

How on earth did Karli know the doctor was dead? Theoretically the list of people who had that information is very small. Sam, Buck, Zemo, Sharon and the PB. So Karli either has a feed from the underworld version of CNN, or she has an insider somewhere. Which might also explain how she got the serum from PB and how she learned about it in the first place. Either somebody in the PB's organization, or perhaps even Sharon. Not sure how I feel about that prospect. Or Zemo, but that doesn't fit his MCU M.O. unless things have changed dramatically offscreen.

 

[Reverend]

We still don't know where Isaiah's serum came from. If the new serum was derived from studying Isaiah's blood, that explains the new version, but not the old. So how did Isaiah wind up a super soldier?

In TFA they drew a bunch of Steve's blood after Erskine's death, and the original formula was destroyed. Presumably it's the same source Ross used for both Banner's research and Blonsky's treatments.

The real question is whether there was any connection with the serum pouches Howard Stark had in his car's boot the day Hydra offed him, and used to make the other Winter Soldiers. What Howard was doing with those is still a lingering question...

 

[Skywalker]

If Agent Carter is, in fact, considered canon with the movies (and I think it at least partially is, both because of James D'Arcy's appearance in Endgame and because of the involvement of Feige, the Russos, and Markus & McFeely in the show's first season), then twelve vials of Steve's blood were drawn after he received the super-soldier serum, eleven of which were kept by the U.S. government. So either they managed to duplicate the serum from Steve's blood like Nagel did, or maybe they just straight up gave Isaiah a blood transfusion using some of that blood. Or they tried it on several subjects and Isaiah was the only one it worked on (or the only one who survived).

 

[Jayson1]

People haven't figured out yet that Mephisto is the Power Broker? I think people are in for a weird surprise then. Jason

 

[Xerxes82]

People haven't figured out yet that Mephisto is the Power Broker? I think people are in for a weird surprise then. Jason

That would make for an amusing twist, after WandaVision.

Personally, I'm still holding out hope for Arnim Zola. I know there is about a 0% chance of that being the case, but I will dream my dream until it's crushed hopelessly.

I've seen speculation now on Zemo, Sharon, Thunderbolt Ross, the Leader, the former SHIELD-actually HYDRA guy from Ant-Man, you name it. Or just a new character based on one of the comic versions of the PB. I figure that last one is the most likely, not every villain needs to be a secret returning character. The casting could be literally anyone.

I'm actually less interested in the PB than Karli. I feel like there's more to her than we're being shown so far.

 

[Anwar]

In the comics, the Flag Smasher's father was a super-wealthy Banker-turned-Diplomat who was killed in an international incident and this is what caused Flag Smasher to begin his crusade.

If they have this type of thing in Karli's history, it might explain a few things. Like her using her family wealth or connections to get in with the power broker.

But we're going to have to wait.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

In TFA they drew a bunch of Steve's blood after Erskine's death, and the original formula was destroyed. Presumably it's the same source Ross used for both Banner's research and Blonsky's treatments.

The real question is whether there was any connection with the serum pouches Howard Stark had in his car's boot the day Hydra offed him, and used to make the other Winter Soldiers. What Howard was doing with those is still a lingering question...

Thanks, I was thinking of Steve's blood, but couldn't remember if it was MCU or something I was conflating from the comics. Have to rewatch TFA.

If Agent Carter is, in fact, considered canon with the movies, then twelve vials of Steve's blood were drawn after he received the super-soldier serum, eleven of which were kept by the U.S. government.

And Agent Carter. I have a lot of review to do for the final.

Now back to F&WS ep 3: When the shipping container lab blew, the camera lingered on the vials of blue liquid a second too long before the explosion. I was left with feeling that someone who was not Bucky walked away with some of that blue stuff in their system. Just a hunch.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
Episode 3: "Power Broker"

Sam/Falcon: I'm enjoying how Sam is the one who needs the ice thawed, not only with Bucky, but with Zemo, although with the latter, his radar going off is warranted. He calls Zemo out (for being "out of line") on his loose racial/cultural interpretation of Marvin Gaye's album, though understanding what he meant. That's the character not being a sociopolitical hardliner, but experienced enough to put someone in their place for assuming what they should not.

Now that Sharon's offering her opinion on Sam not taking the shield, the nagging should finally prod Sam into laying his refusal all out. I'm looking forward to that.

Bucky/Winter Soldier: Bucky's instant personality change (while pretending to be his old self) is a bit concerning; he knows that side is in him to some degree, and he's working with someone who is trying to find a way back into that side. For the first time, Bucky fully acknowledges Sam risking his own skin to help him, which is the door cracking (finally) for the two to bond. Even Bucky's tit-for-tat refusal to move his seat forward is more teasing than adversarial.

Baron Zemo: He's more of a slippery character that had been in Civil War; gone is the sullen man thinking of his family, now acting like he's been some cool mastermind with no psychological hiccups along the way--which does require some explanation.

Sharon Carter: Sharon being so hard and bitter addressed a question I had about her life during and after the events of Civil War; the films completely dropped her from even so much as a reference to her fate (after helping Steve and his allies), with no character mentioning her. So it was a believable outcome for Sharon to be less than pleased to see--of all people--Sam and Bucky. Se's so jaded and resentful of the American ideal that some viewers wonder if she's the "Power Broker" (especially after her "actually, a couple of problems" line to her driver), or could it be...

Ayo: At first glance, she seems to be tracking Bucky, after learning he was traveling with Zemo for the purpose of revenge, but one would think if T'Challa--the one who lost his own father in Zemo's U.N. attack--could let go of a thirst for revenge, some of his "higher-ups" would too, seeing the pointlessness of revenge...or maybe they're not as enlightened as T'Challa...

I would suspect that she's not just some leftover continuity reference and plays a larger role, hence some viewers' theory that she has something to do with the Power Broker / Flag Smasher situation.

John Walker / Cap 2.0 & Lemar Hoskins Battlestar: "Do you know who I am!?" yelled Walker--in only the course of a few days, he's now bought into the idea that he is Captain America and expects respect...forgetting that Steve never demanded that from anyone. He even needed Hoskins to remind him that in all obviousness--people reviving shelter and medicine from Karli will be loyal to her and the cause). Walker is not hearing any of it, as he's too focused on a "win" for the glory of a stolen identity.
The Flag-Smashers / Dovich / Karli Morgenthau: For a super-powered revolutionary, Karli is a rattled mess (for good reason, after her friend's passing from tuberculosis). I could see her being the wild card in this struggle somewhere down the road.

NOTES:
Interesting and telling conversation between Sam and Zemo regarding Sam's suit; Wilson criticizes Zemo for giving him a suit that resembles that of a pimp yet Zemo--in a semi-correct observation--informs Sam that only in America would a fashion-forward black man be seen like a pimp. He was not BS-ing.

The series is quite good at keeping the audience guessing regarding loyalties, to the point that this plot might lead to some fans being disappointed in the decisions of at least three characters. At the moment, I'm not going to speculate about that, but some things do not seem right, but the journey to potentially bad outcomes is fascinating. Not since The Punisher has a MC/TVU series been so fascinating.

GRADE: A.

 

[Paul Weaver]

I appreciate the way they're at least giving mention to the fact they spent five years contracting the world infrastructure and then HEY, population re-doubles overnight and none of them have jobs! And we uhh, distributed their finances to their next of kin already. Oops.

I get the impression it’s the ones who didn’t vanish in IW that are the refugees, not the ones who returned to no jobs homes or money