question about Friday's Child subtitles from 2008 TOS-R DVD

[Extrocomp]

What does Maab say right after Spock says "If by that you mean we can't expect help from the Enterprise, I must agree"?

I downloaded the Blu-ray subtitles but Maab's line is missing from them. I think Maab says the name of the Capellan warrior who gets killed immediately afterwards. I'm working on a list of every character that appeared in the Star Trek universe, so I want to know his name. Since the name is missing from the Blu-ray, the 2008 TOS-R DVD is the next newest source.

If anyone could tell me what the 2008 subtitles say the line is, I would appreciate it.

 

[Timo]

Memory Alpha covers this: the guy is named Deem in the script, whereas assorted subtitles feature Naam, Leem or Liam.

None of these sources is particularly authoritative in the end. Had Michael Dante said "Noob" when voicing the line in his role as Maab, then Noob it would be, quite regardless of what the script might have suggested. But "Deem" is consistent with what we hear vocalized, even though the spelling "Diem" would probably be an even better match.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Extrocomp]

Scripts are not always reliable. I consider the newest source to be the most authoritative, which is why I asked specifically about the 2008 TOS-R DVD.

 

[Maurice]

Subtitles are often incorrect.

 

[MAGolding]

According to Star trek Transcripts the dialog is:

SPOCK: Here, Captain. Over here, Captain. (into communicator as Kirk joins him.) Spock to Enterprise.
KIRK: The cavalry doesn't come over the hill in the nick of time anymore.
SPOCK: If by that you mean we can't expect help from the Enterprise, I must agree.
MAAB: Naam.
(But Kras disintegrates him before he can throw his kligat)

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/32.htm

So if the transcrit is always 100 percent accurate, the Capellan was named Naam. And if the transcript is not always accurate, then that will not be the final word.

 

[Tosk]

Chakoteya is an incredible resource but often inaccurate. It's the work of a dedicated fan, so it is never the final word.

 

[Extrocomp]

According to Star trek Transcripts the dialog is:

I was asking about the 2008/2009 TOS-R DVD subtitles.

 

[Tosk]

I was asking about the 2008/2009 TOS-R DVD subtitles.

The R1 2008 release of TOSR season 2 on DVD only has Spanish and French subtitle tracks, but it does have English closed captioning too. The closed captioning says "Liam" and the Spanish and French subtitles both skip the line entirely.

 

[Extrocomp]

The R1 2008 release of TOSR season 2 on DVD only has Spanish and French subtitle tracks, but it does have English closed captioning too. The closed captioning says "Liam" and the Spanish and French subtitles both skip the line entirely.

Thanks for looking it up. I appreciate it.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Memory Alpha covers this: the guy is named Deem in the script, whereas assorted subtitles feature Naam, Leem or Liam.

A shame the subtitle people didn't access the shooting scripts.

It's an interesting episode for alien names. I guess there is a pronunciation guide in the shooting script as to the double-vowel names. (This was an episode I knew from the synopsis in the "Concordance" and the Blish novelization, long before catching the actual episode, so it was a surprising hearing the names finally being said aloud.)

Of course, the scripted Gomatu of planet Neural (in "A Private Little War") became a Mugato because De Kelley had trouble pronouncing the word, but its homeworld was never mentioned onscreen, so not "canonical".

 

[johnnybear]

Maab also mentions Keel pronounced Key-Eel to stand ready when he challenges Kras and gives Eleen her life back and that of her child!
JB

 

[Timo]

...So the spelling "Deem" would go well with that, consistently establishing how Capellans treat the double e.

I don't quite understand the mechanism of newer subtitles somehow being more authoritative than older ones. Why would the new ones have fewer errors? There's no known revising process or anything.

Subtitles aren't "sources" anyway. The actual episode is. It's the job of the subtitles to get this either right or wrong. And with Deem, there's no real telling.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[alchemist]

Memory Alpha covers this: the guy is named Deem in the script, whereas assorted subtitles feature Naam, Leem or Liam.

None of these sources is particularly authoritative in the end. Had Michael Dante said "Noob" when voicing the line in his role as Maab, then Noob it would be, quite regardless of what the script might have suggested. But "Deem" is consistent with what we hear vocalized, even though the spelling "Diem" would probably be an even better match.

Timo Saloniemi

I can confirm that Fontana's revised final draft script (5/11/67) calls him Deem, and both vowels in the name would be pronounced (see below).

A shame the subtitle people didn't access the shooting scripts.

It's an interesting episode for alien names. I guess there is a pronunciation guide in the shooting script as to the double-vowel names. (This was an episode I knew from the synopsis in the "Concordance" and the Blish novelization, long before catching the actual episode, so it was a surprising hearing the names finally being said aloud.)

Here's what's in Fontana's revised final draft script:

NOTE: Double vowels in Capellan names are both pronounced. Example: Maab - (Mah-Ahb); Akaar - (Aka-Ahr); Eleen - (Ely-Ehn, etc.)

Of course, the scripted Gomatu of planet Neural (in "A Private Little War") became a Mugato because De Kelley had trouble pronouncing the word, but its homeworld was never mentioned onscreen, so not "canonical".

This is a myth. I asked Fontana about it and she said that they changed the name before shooting started because they felt that Mugato sounded better.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

It looks like the names really should’ve been spelled with an apostrophe: Aka’ar, De’em, Ele’en, Ma’ab. Also te’er, of course. SNW could retcon this in as it reimagines the Capellans’ appearance “the way it would’ve been presented on TOS if only they had the makeup techniques/budget.”

 

[Extrocomp]

Now that I think about it, the newest source would actually be the Paramount+ subtitles which call him Leem. I had earlier dismissed them because I thought that streaming service subtitles often get changed and are therefore undateable, but that appears to only be true for the Netflix subtitles. Netflix allows customers to report subtitle mistakes, while Paramount+ doesn't, so the Paramount subtitles are probably the same as they were when the service was first launched in 28 October 2014.

As for why I'm ignoring the script, it's because scripts (even final drafts) are often significantly different to the finished episode with different character names.
Here's a short list of character names that got changed from final draft script to screen.

Cheffski > DePaul
Christine Ducheaux > Christine Chapel
Dimont > Kelowitz
Gumato > Mugato
Jake > Butler
James Farrell > John Farrell
James Winter > Christopher Pike
Jason Orlastian > Jason Tabreez
Jetal > Jurot
Li Chow > Lindstrom
Manning > Tamura
Mary Teller > Angela Martine
Molton > Kelowitz
Robert Daiken > Kevin Riley
Sara Mandel > Kingsley
Timothy Fletcher > DeSalle
Vaphorans > Vidiians

I don't quite understand the mechanism of newer subtitles somehow being more authoritative than older ones. Why would the new ones have fewer errors?

It's not about errors. Star Trek is entirely fictional so no spelling is more true than any other. I've decided to go with the newest source because I needed some way of deciding what to call a character who has multiple names. For example, the Gorn captain had no name in the episode, but the various comics and games gave him 5 different names. The newest source is often the one people are most likely to read.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

It's not about errors. Star Trek is entirely fictional so no spelling is more true than any other.

Not quite. You’re still looking for internal consistency, truth inside the fiction: people like Picard obviously have identity records such as birth certificates or personnel files which demonstrate the correct spelling (so we’d know it’s not Piccard).

Cappelan names, on the other hand, would be spelled the way first-contact parties introduce them into English, probably with the help of the universal translator.

 

[alchemist]

As for why I'm ignoring the script, it's because scripts (even final drafts) are often significantly different to the finished episode with different character names.
Here's a short list of character names that got changed from final draft script to screen.

Cheffski > DePaul
Christine Ducheaux > Christine Chapel
Dimont > Kelowitz
Gumato > Mugato
Jake > Butler
James Farrell > John Farrell
James Winter > Christopher Pike
Jason Orlastian > Jason Tabreez
Jetal > Jurot
Li Chow > Lindstrom
Manning > Tamura
Mary Teller > Angela Martine
Molton > Kelowitz
Robert Daiken > Kevin Riley
Sara Mandel > Kingsley
Timothy Fletcher > DeSalle
Vaphorans > Vidiians


It's not about errors. Star Trek is entirely fictional so no spelling is more true than any other. I've decided to go with the newest source because I needed some way of deciding what to call a character who has multiple names. For example, the Gorn captain had no name in the episode, but the various comics and games gave him 5 different names. The newest source is often the one people are most likely to read.

The problem is that 1). final draft scripts were not necessarily shooting drafts. For many episodes, there were/are succeeding revised final drafts, 2nd revised final drafts, etc. and 2). there are a lot of scripts floating today around that are missing their change pages. This means that some changes, especially last minute ones, are missing in some copies. Both of these issues have caused a lot of confusion and erroneous information over the years.

Using just one example from your list of name changes, there's an insert page towards the beginning of the revised final draft of "The Cage," dated 11/25/64, that clearly states that "Captain James Winter" is being changed to "Captain Christopher Pike." Principal photography started on 11/27/64 and Thanksgiving was on 11/26/64.

 

[Tosk]

It looks like the names really should’ve been spelled with an apostrophe

Why can't another language follow different pronunciation rules?

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Why can't another language follow different pronunciation rules?

I’m thinking of rules for a Capellan language romanization system used in English, designed to make it easier for English speakers familiar with English spelling to remember how the names should be pronounced. Such a system would not omit the apostrophe or another separator if we’re supposed to remember there are two vowels, not a long one. (One possibility is that what we see in script-based spelling is a scientific romanization of Capellan not necessarily tied to English.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

Here's a short list of character names that got changed from final draft script to screen.

Sure, but most of those changes made it to onscreen material. Some scripted items never make it to onscreen dialogue, eg. the planet Neural, and Shran's name in his first "Enterprise" appearance. Christine Chapel did.

In those situations where the word is inaudible or never said aloud, the shooting script is useful. We know that the closed caption people go on their ear only, not 60s scripts. The closed caption writers should not, in my mind, be the final arbiter.