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Justice League official "Zack Snyder" cut on HBO Max

I am NOT a fan of Rand’s objectivist philosophy. Take what you will from that.

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
—John Rogers​
 
The crashed Kryptonian ships states when they've revived Superman that: "The future has now taken root in the present". This has cememented the bad future, as witnessed by Cyborg as well, as something unavoidable.
Which is a little silly if you ask me. Predict the future, sure...but unless Carla-bot has an actual line to the future that's all it is. A guess based on current info. Every choice made afterwards makes the prediction potentially less accurate.
 
Martian Manhunter was supposed to be in it but the actor wasn’t available at the time it was filmed. Since he was now, they added it.
The Joker scene was done solely for the fans to give Batman and Joker a scene together. It was one of the best scenes in the film IMO.
I read Snyder wanted John Stewart but the studio wouldn’t allow it so he went with MM.
 
The crashed Kryptonian ships states when they've revived Superman that: "The future has now taken root in the present". This has cemented the bad future, as witnessed by Cyborg as well, as something unavoidable.

The implication in the last nightmare Bruce has is that it's somehow Batman himself who is the reason for all the failed timelines. He has to die to stop the loop.

That could be true if it was meant to be Bruce who was killed by Darkseid in the Batcave rather than Lois.

They already averted another bad future when Flash went back in time moments after unification.

The new new bad future where Joker and Batman are banging, is from Darksied showing up with a war fleet, months or years later than than the original invasion via space bridge.

Which reminds me of the end of Stargate SG1 season 1.
 
Which is a little silly if you ask me. Predict the future, sure...but unless Carla-bot has an actual line to the future that's all it is. A guess based on current info. Every choice made afterwards makes the prediction potentially less accurate.

Neutons laws of motion

In the first law, an object will not change its motion unless a force acts on it. In the second law, the force on an object is equal to its mass times its acceleration. In the third law, when two objects interact, they apply forces to each other of equal magnitude and opposite direction.

The laws of branching timelines.

1. A timelines will not split unless acted on by time travel.

2. The divergence between two branching timeliness is relative to the determination of the time traveller.

3. If two time travelers get into a spat, time will yoyo off kilter worse with every attempt one time traveller exerts to over power the other time traveller.

:)

The laws of time and the laws of motion are very similar.
 
Sure, okay...now tell me how the computer can possibly know the future in the first place?
 
It's a quantum computer?

It's future self sends reports back to present day.

The problem is, that every time that is done, the time line splits.

Time can never move forward from the point you send information back.

It's suicidal.

Or...

It made a statistical model, an artifical reality metering at fast forward, and it shared a very good guess with Cyborg.
 
He wasn't "whiny" or "emo". Unless you've never hung out with anyone other than loud mouthed assholes. I grew up in a relatively rural area and Clark in MoS has the same soft spoken manner and bearing of plenty of kids, not to mention farm kids, I knew. Certainly more in line with my experience of actual soft spoken people than pretty much every other iteration.

His "personality"? Um....what? Because he wasn't rattling off safety statistics or saying "And remember kids.......(fill in the blank with "eat your vegetables"...or..."take your vitamins"?) I used to be on a volunteer fire department out in the sticks as a teenager. Most of these guys showed up, did the job, and left. To the people in this community, these people were heroes. Like this Superman, that they did this of their own free will, on their own free time, with no thought of thanks or reward spoke enough of what their "personality" was. That's a heroes "personality" to me. YMMV

As for emo whining....some posters have spent literal YEARS engaged in emo / edgelord whining about these films on this board. So I can't take any complaints of "whining" in these films seriously.



Joss Whedon has never crafted a joke or humorous moment that didn't scream "see how clever, witty and funny I am!!!1!!one!"



At literally no point does Jonathan talk about how the world can't handle someone as "superior" as Clark. His fear was how the world would react to something as *different* as Clark, an actual alien. Because people are largely fearful creatures and plenty are hateful to boot. The last four years of Trump showed that whatever delusions of progress and enlightened thinking we may have had about this country have been shown to be bullshit. Hate crimes at an all time high, a resurgence in White Nationalism, attempts to restrict voting in minority areas...fear mongering by Trump and his propagandists about immigrants and people who were seeking asylum from actual tyranny.

And it worked.

On half the goddamn country.

That's the world you live in right now. A country where half the population engaged in mass fear and hate induced pants shitting over immigrants, black lives, Asians, etc. Bought into so much bullshit that they led an insurrection against the lawful government of this country. So Jonathan Kents belief that people (and not just people here in the States) might freak the fuck out over a godlike alien were perfectly believable.



He literally didn't do that either as evidenced by the fact that he didn't say "yes". He said "maybe" as in "maybe...I don't know." Like any honest person who knows they don't have the answer to a tough question. He also goes on to essentially say "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" by saying "there's more at stake here than just our lives". Proof of actual alien life would be revolutionary in so many ways and would effect massive social upheaval. Go watch "Contact" for just a taste of how humanity would react. It's not going to be like it was in Superman: The Movie where "I'm from an alien world" is no different than if he'd said "I'm from Fresno".



Feels isolated? Probably.
Angry? No. Sounds like projection, as does "resentful of having to help people."

And who said he "had" to help people? No one. He did it anyway.

This Superman has been helping people since he was a child. "I just wanted to help" is what he tells Jonathan after defying his lessons of not revealing himself. We then see him helping people multiple times. Never looking for glory, never looking for adulation. But since he didn't deliver a public service announcement about airline safety, or spout off useless platitudes, you may have mistaken that as being "resentful", but it's not.

The fact is, unlike the Christopher Reeve Superman, this one was helping people since he was a kid. Meanwhile Reeve Superman doesn't do jack shit to help a single person until he goes to the Fortress and gets his marching orders from his Space Daddy. Who tells him who and what he's "supposed" to be. While Cavil Superman, with the exception of once, is shown defying those who tell him or caution him not to help people. Even Lois Lane tells him, in one of the most pivotal scenes in MoS, that she could sense that not helping was NOT an option for him. It wasn't a bombastic moment, no long winded speeches, no swelling music, but it summed up who Superman is better than any filmed iteration.

"I sense not helping people is NOT an option for you"

THAT is Superman.

Angry, resentful people don't waste time helping people. They spend years on websites complaining about movies they didn't like.



Again.....he was helping people since he was a kid. Lois Lane said that she sensed that not helping people was NOT an option for him. He was an actual hero the moment he saved those kids lives and everyone afterwards...from the waitress, to the oil rig workers to the entire planet by the end of the movie.



Essentially "choose the path you feel is right, I'll support it" which is what any non-asshole parent tells their kid. They don't railroad them into being something they don't want to be. But she knew, based on the fact that he helped people, non-stop, even before he was Superman that he was going to continue to help people until the day he died, even if it killed him, and it did. Before Zod came to Earth, she could live with the belief that nothing could hurt him and he would die of natural causes. Now she saw that he could be hurt. That he could be killed. That, because he's operating in public, he could be smeared and torn down, relentlessly by either fearful people or those with an agenda. As a mother, she didn't want him getting dragged into the mud by hateful or fearful people, but she supported his decision even though as a mother, she probably didn't like it. He's doing this on his own free time, of his own free will with no thought of thanks or reward. So no, he doesn't owe the world a thing. But he still does it anyway.

That's what makes him a hero.

That's what makes him Superman.
Sideswipes at Superman '78 and Snyder critics aside, this is a thoughtful and well-written post, with some interesting insights. So thanks for that. :techman:
 
Superman seemed perfectly fine in his movies. I don’t get the complaints

I never got that from Superman at all. He seemed like a hero to me.

The complaints come from some who have suffered from a misconception about Superman from the start--usually based on poor to flat-out-awful adaptations over the decades, whether it was the dreary, Old Daddy George Reeves TV series, the Super Friends cartoons, or the worst of the Salkinds (and by association, the Cannon-produced Superman IV). Its amusing (in how self-defeating it is) that some cling to those versions as if they represent an originalist reading of the character, when each was driven and shaped by people with no association with the comics--specifically the early, defined published version of Superman.

I never got that from Superman at all. He seemed like a hero to me.

Superman in the DCEU is a hero, and raised by humans who warned him about the ills of humanity (how they could and eventually did turn against him as an alien), all the while, he makes the hero's decisions, such as the imperative motive for killing Zod (only someone who has never read a single page of heroic fiction thinks "no one ever kills" in situations where there's no time or chance for options / compromise), and of course, his ultimate sacrifice in Dawn of Justice.

Same. He is struggling with his identity. Seems pretty standard superhero stuff to me.

Of course...unless the view of superheroes is that they are flawless Daddy Figures who tuck you in at night, and never have any growing or challenges to face along the path of life. A hero with challenges is one that is relatable, as opposed the Genie / wishbook / Daddy character who is so far removed from what people know to be reality that he's about as relatable as a statue.
 
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He wasn't "whiny" or "emo". Unless you've never hung out with anyone other than loud mouthed assholes. I grew up in a relatively rural area and Clark in MoS has the same soft spoken manner and bearing of plenty of kids, not to mention farm kids, I knew. Certainly more in line with my experience of actual soft spoken people than pretty much every other iteration.

:techman:

His "personality"? Um....what? Because he wasn't rattling off safety statistics or saying "And remember kids.......(fill in the blank with "eat your vegetables"...or..."take your vitamins"?) I used to be on a volunteer fire department out in the sticks as a teenager. Most of these guys showed up, did the job, and left. To the people in this community, these people were heroes. Like this Superman, that they did this of their own free will, on their own free time, with no thought of thanks or reward spoke enough of what their "personality" was. That's a heroes "personality" to me. YMMV

Well said. I have many generations of family members in the military, and not once did any of them run around grinning and expecting everyone to pat them on the back, fueling their egos about how "great" they are. That's not heroism--it is a certain part of the fan base seeking to worship a character, and as part of the worship, feel the hero should stand there, beaming due to the adulation. Pure cartoon crap, and not anything close to reality, or even good entertainment.

As for emo whining....some posters have spent literal YEARS engaged in emo / edgelord whining about these films on this board. So I can't take any complaints of "whining" in these films seriously.

Well said. Instead of ignoring the films, they dive deep into their clinically unhealthy obsession with hating a version of a character, as if their own lives were at risk. That is a disturbing detachment from reality.

Joss Whedon has never crafted a joke or humorous moment that didn't scream "see how clever, witty and funny I am!!!1!!one!"

That's what happens when you have someone who believes only in himself (seen in his numerous abuses of former cast members of his series), and is enabled by a certain corner of fandom that gobbled up anything he dropped on the ground as "awesome".

At literally no point does Jonathan talk about how the world can't handle someone as "superior" as Clark. His fear was how the world would react to something as *different* as Clark, an actual alien. Because people are largely fearful creatures and plenty are hateful to boot.

Exactly. Anyone "missing" that message is doing so deliberately, fueled by an agenda that runs screaming from the character's rational, realistic statements about humans really would see an alien with superpowers...and it will not be as the 1950s milkman waving to everyone. That would be absurd.


That's the world you live in right now. A country where half the population engaged in mass fear and hate induced pants shitting over immigrants, black lives, Asians, etc. Bought into so much bullshit that they led an insurrection against the lawful government of this country. So Jonathan Kents belief that people (and not just people here in the States) might freak the fuck out over a godlike alien were perfectly believable.

Undeniable fact, the very reason why he handing of Superman in Man of Steel is the most realistic where the subject of human reaction to a superpowered alien is concerned...and its not universal love / Daddy substitution fantasies, either.



He literally didn't do that either as evidenced by the fact that he didn't say "yes". He said "maybe" as in "maybe...I don't know." Like any honest person who knows they don't have the answer to a tough question. He also goes on to essentially say "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" by saying "there's more at stake here than just our lives". Proof of actual alien life would be revolutionary in so many ways and would effect massive social upheaval. Go watch "Contact" for just a taste of how humanity would react. It's not going to be like it was in Superman: The Movie where "I'm from an alien world" is no different than if he'd said "I'm from Fresno".

True, and its one of the failings about Superman '78.

And who said he "had" to help people? No one. He did it anyway.

Right--he makes a decision to help. He has to want to do that, like any real person.

This Superman has been helping people since he was a child. "I just wanted to help" is what he tells Jonathan after defying his lessons of not revealing himself. We then see him helping people multiple times. Never looking for glory, never looking for adulation. But since he didn't deliver a public service announcement about airline safety, or spout off useless platitudes, you may have mistaken that as being "resentful", but it's not.

Excellent observation.

The fact is, unlike the Christopher Reeve Superman, this one was helping people since he was a kid. Meanwhile Reeve Superman doesn't do jack shit to help a single person until he goes to the Fortress and gets his marching orders from his Space Daddy. Who tells him who and what he's "supposed" to be. While Cavil Superman, with the exception of once, is shown defying those who tell him or caution him not to help people. Even Lois Lane tells him, in one of the most pivotal scenes in MoS, that she could sense that not helping was NOT an option for him. It wasn't a bombastic moment, no long winded speeches, no swelling music, but it summed up who Superman is better than any filmed iteration.

"I sense not helping people is NOT an option for you"

THAT is Superman.

Another excellent observation. True understanding of the DECU Superman....and the issues with the Salkinds' version.

Angry, resentful people don't waste time helping people. They spend years on websites complaining about movies they didn't like.

This thread--and others like it--stand as a monument to that behavior.


Essentially "choose the path you feel is right, I'll support it" which is what any non-asshole parent tells their kid. They don't railroad them into being something they don't want to be. But she knew, based on the fact that he helped people, non-stop, even before he was Superman that he was going to continue to help people until the day he died, even if it killed him, and it did. Before Zod came to Earth, she could live with the belief that nothing could hurt him and he would die of natural causes. Now she saw that he could be hurt. That he could be killed. That, because he's operating in public, he could be smeared and torn down, relentlessly by either fearful people or those with an agenda. As a mother, she didn't want him getting dragged into the mud by hateful or fearful people, but she supported his decision even though as a mother, she probably didn't like it. He's doing this on his own free time, of his own free will with no thought of thanks or reward. So no, he doesn't owe the world a thing. But he still does it anyway.

That's what makes him a hero.

That's what makes him Superman.

Wonderful. :techman:
 
There is a certain level of satire in Verhoeven's work that I suspect wouldn't interest Snyder. Though they feel similar since they both make movies with a sort of misanthropic vibe. It's just that Snyder's movies seem to be sincerely like that whereas Verhoeven is mocking the worlds that he creates.

Nipples on the Ozymandias suit and the music with Dan/Laurie sex scene I think shows he was at least intentionally going OTT.

There's something poetically simple about stopping nuclear war by manufacturing an alien menace for humanity to unite against. But it's also kinda silly, would look even sillier in live action, and I'm not sure would actually work in the long run. The constant threat of Dr. Manhattan wiping us all out makes more sense.

The original especially works as a twisted rethinking of benevolent aliens inspiring and uniting us. Dr. Manhattan is an OK alternate except there presumably would be a lot more blaming of and resentment of the US.

While the Watchmen comic looks grimdark in a way that might fit Snyder's aesthetic, it's actually a critique of that kind of vigilante superheroism.

Moore can be preachy but I think with Watchmen he mostly restrained himself. I think I read that his intention was to have all the characters be extreme versions of outlooks and therefore all wrong in different ways and degrees. Actually with V he also, while liking V more, tried to have wrong extreme vs. other wrong extreme.
 
Didn't Martha <insert meme here> Kent also have a line that went something like "save them or don't; you don't owe the world anything", or am I misremembering? It's been ages since I've seen any of the previous WBDC movies so my memory is a bit vague.

Regardless, even if it's just Jonathon Kent it's a problem because he's supposed to be the embodiment of Clark's moral compass while Jor'El is meant to be more about intellect.

Superman saving people out of choice rather than a sense of obligation doesn't feel *that* different. And in Smallville and in most previous versions the Kent parents as well as Clark *have been* concerned about Clark protecting a secret identity and personal life.

Edit: Kind of Off Topic, but how come pretty much no one complained about Objectivism in The Incredibles?
 
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Having just finished........(watched in 4 1 hour shifts)..........having read much about this, if the epilogue was the ONLY new footage shot, and the studio had over 4 hours of footage, why the hell did they even bring in a new director and not just a really good editor to get Snyder's footage down to maybe the 2:30 or 2:45 min mark for theaters? I did enjoy this cut much more.
 
Absolutely! As usual some of the cut stuff would have turned up as deleted scenes for bonus features. With common debates about what could have been left in or out. But we would have had a passable film at worst.

Seems there was no one willing to look at the shot footage and original script and find a reasonable compromise. It appears WB started to try and influence changes before Snyder’s personal tragedy. Once he stepped away WB went overboard and wanted a completely movie than was the original plan.

Something that is often overlooked in blaming Warner Bros or any other studio, who is in charge of the studio often changes from a film first being green lighted to actual release. I have lost track in the executive changes there in the last decade. It’s not necessarily that individual people have changed their minds, it’s that the people calling the shots have changed.
 
Sure, okay...now tell me how the computer can possibly know the future in the first place?

Both Kryptonian and Apokoliptian technology can open portals that enables them to travel to different dimensions/realities. It isn't too much of a stretch to include time travel/manipulation/prediction in that as well.
 
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He wasn't "whiny" or "emo". Unless you've never hung out with anyone other than loud mouthed assholes.

And thus we begin with :rolleyes:

I grew up in a relatively rural area and Clark in MoS has the same soft spoken manner and bearing of plenty of kids, not to mention farm kids, I knew. Certainly more in line with my experience of actual soft spoken people than pretty much every other iteration.

There's a diffference between soft spoken and self-conscious and self-conscious was what Clark was for the bulk of MoS, to the point where he was sullen about it. He had spent most of his adult life trying to figure out his place in a world where he'd been told by his paranoid father he'd be considered a freak if anybody knew anything about him, and Dad reinforced that point by letting himself die just so nobody would know what Clark could do. Clark was not just "soft-spoken." He was psychologically messsed up.

And if your general experience was to be surrounded by psychologically messed up acquaintances, I feel sorry for you.

His "personality"? Um....what? Because he wasn't rattling off safety statistics or saying "And remember kids.......(fill in the blank with "eat your vegetables"...or..."take your vitamins"?)

No, because instead of confronting a bully he couldn't possibly be hurt by he slinked off and impaled the guy's rig on a pike. Passive-aggressive. Psychologically messed up.

[
I used to be on a volunteer fire department out in the sticks as a teenager. Most of these guys showed up, did the job, and left. To the people in this community, these people were heroes. Like this Superman, that they did this of their own free will, on their own free time, with no thought of thanks or reward spoke enough of what their "personality" was. That's a heroes "personality" to me. YMMV

Superman is not supposed to be a typical blue-collared first responder. No one is paying movie theater prices or streaming service money to see a guy in a unitard do a 24-on-call and then wind down with a beer at Kelsey's. We can see that on TV shows like 9-1-1 and Chicago Fire. Superman is a god-like being who's here to handle situations no normal first-responder could, which is why he's called a super-hero, and the whole point of watching a super-hero movie or TV show is to see in live action how he handles it.

And getting back to personality, in the few instances when we actually get to see Supes acting like a hero, his reactions tend toward despair, ambivalance and petulance. We've now had three movies with Snyder Superman in them and I don't think guy ever once even looked happy to have actually saved anybody.

And let's not even discuss the time he let an entire building full of people blow up around him and just stood there lip-quivering. (emo bitch...)

As for emo whining....some posters have spent literal YEARS engaged in emo / edgelord whining about these films on this board. So I can't take any complaints of "whining" in these films seriously.

I don't care what you take seriously. I didn't complain about whining in the movie because I sought your validation. I complained about whining because that's what I fucking saw!



Joss Whedon has never crafted a joke or humorous moment that didn't scream "see how clever, witty and funny I am!!!1!!one!"

And i'd happily take Whedon's absolute worst joke over "SAVE MARTHA!" "WHY'D YOU SAY THAT NAME???" any day of the goddamned week!
 
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And if your general experience was to be surrounded by psychologically messed up acquaintances, I feel sorry for you.
Thanks, but my acquaintances and I get along just fine. :beer:

We've now had three movies with Snyder Superman in them and I don't think guy ever once even looked happy to have actually saved anybody.
Sounds like many people in the social services and military that I know. Honestly, being happy about saving someone isn't something I share with many people. There is a sense of arrogance that comes with it that I simply do not like. So, when it comes to growing up feeling like an outsider, feeling the urge to help people, and cautious around people, I actually identify far more with Snyder's Superman than many other superheroes out there.

So, is that messed up? Maybe. But, for me, it is highly relatable.

Mileage, etc.
 
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