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Justice League official "Zack Snyder" cut on HBO Max

Honestly I thought the Ayn Randness/Atlas Shrugitude was way more downplayed here compared to MoS & BvS (which was a major bugbear for me in those movies.) Hell, it actually came close to getting Superman right...not quite, but close.

You know, after re-watching MoS last night, it strikes that that Randian subtext is more present in the Jonathan Kent flashbacks than in Clark per se. Jonathan is the one who talks about how the world can't handle someone so superior as Clark and urges him to let innocent people die to protect himself. Flashback!Clark isn't Randian per se -- he's angry and isolated and resentful of having to help people, but to me he reads more as a potential future incel than Ayn Rand devotee. And Present-Day!Clark in MoS is mostly decent (excepting his "Krypton had its chance!" social darwinist line).

Per my memory after rewatching MoS last night, Clark doesn't really get onto his Ayn Rand bullshit until Batman v. Superman.
 
You know, after re-watching MoS last night, it strikes that that Randian subtext is more present in the Jonathan Kent flashbacks than in Clark per se. Jonathan is the one who talks about how the world can't handle someone so superior as Clark and urges him to let innocent people die to protect himself. Flashback!Clark isn't Randian per se -- he's angry and isolated and resentful of having to help people, but to me he reads more as a potential future incel than Ayn Rand devotee. And Present-Day!Clark in MoS is mostly decent (excepting his "Krypton had its chance!" social darwinist line).

Per my memory after rewatching MoS last night, Clark doesn't really get onto his Ayn Rand bullshit until Batman v. Superman.
Didn't Martha <insert meme here> Kent also have a line that went something like "save them or don't; you don't owe the world anything", or am I misremembering? It's been ages since I've seen any of the previous WBDC movies so my memory is a bit vague.

Regardless, even if it's just Jonathon Kent it's a problem because he's supposed to be the embodiment of Clark's moral compass while Jor'El is meant to be more about intellect. Imagine if Uncle Ben was like "with great power comes doing basically what youever want, because why the fuck not?!" The version Peter Parker that has THAT version of Uncle Ben does not turn out to be Spider-Man, powers or no.

That's pretty much where this incarnation of Superman is at, which makes it hard to credit how Clark goes from that outlook, to an actual hero. Doesn't matter if he acts like a hero in the third act or not, it's missing something crucial in the character's through line. Plot driven action instead of character driven.
"I must behave heroically now, because it's the end of the movie and the music says so!" But then Batman pretty much does the same thing with the infamous "Martha" turn. Nobody ever accused old Zach of coherent characterisation.
 
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Only issue I have was Superman’s choice of the black suit is never directly addressed at all. I am aware ithat in the comics it was to absorb sunlight. Bought new when it came out. Sure he briefly from orbit seems to take in the sun. But I am skeptical that was a later choice given it was shot with a color suit. I can ignore that always a cool look, liked it since it debuted. (1993?). But very surprise to see him wearing it still when he changes from Clark to Superman. (Figured that was Whedon footage) But in traditional colors in flash forward.

It's not addressed directly in the film, but in this interview with Esquire the following was said:

"ESQ: Except for when they do. True. What's the story behind Superman's black suit?

Snyder: It comes from Death of Superman of course. But I'm also into this Robert Bly book The Red, White, and Black. The white of naivety, the red of anger, and the black of humanity. I just felt like the black suit is really symbolic of that as well. But also, frankly, I flew him straight up to the sun to charge him up. I like the black suit as a practical thing of there needing to be a way for Superman to charge up quickly and be stronger than he was. So it works in a theoretical and symbolic way."
 
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You say that is if the Snyder Cut is automatically the same quality as those films just because a bunch of inserts made it long. ZSJL is not Spartacus, and no amount of tweaking will ever make it Spartacus, or Solaris, or Stalker.
Yeah, it's not in the same league (sic) as those movies but it is better for being longer than the 2017 bowdlerised and eviscerated version. The extra time gives it room to breathe and develop rather than being a mad, breathless, rollercoaster ride. Even so, I thought it could perhaps have done with even more moments of reflection. However, I will rewatch this while I've never felt inclined to watch the Whedon version again.
 
Didn't Martha <insert meme here> Kent also have a line that went something like "save them or don't; you don't owe the world anything", or am I misremembering? It's been ages since I've seen any of the previous WBDC movies so my memory is a bit vague.

It's in Beavis. "Be their hero, Clark. Be their monument, be their angel, be anything they need you to be ... or be none of it. You don't owe this world anything."

That's actually one of the reasons I enjoy the interpretations of the Kents in Snyder's films. I don't agree with the idea that characters "need" to follow certain archetypes or patterns in any particular adaptation; let the characters stand on their own, and if you have enough fuel behind a new direction for them, then, fuck it, take it. That's why the "Maybe" scene in Man of Steel works so well for me: Jonathan is a genuinely good man, the moral center for his son to emulate, but he's also completely fucking overwhelmed by the fact that he's raising an alien boy with super powers that are utterly incomprehensible to him, and all he has to fall back on is his traditional small-town values. So, yeah, of course he'd try to minimize the attention and disdain his son gets.

Martha's the same way. She knows that Clark is a genuinely good man, because Jonathan taught him to be one. But she also knows that Clark's very existence, the fact of him being A Thing in this world of humans, is something that would boggle pretty much every mind. She doesn't know what she would do in his position, so all she can do is offer her love.

And one of the beautiful things about Snyder's films is that it shows that a mother and father's love ... can actually be enough.
 
Snyder: It comes from Death of Superman of course. But I'm also into this Robert Bly book The Red, White, and Black. The white of naivety, the red of anger, and the black of humanity. I just felt like the black suit is really symbolic of that as well. But also, frankly, I flew him straight up to the sun to charge him up. I like the black suit as a practical thing of there needing to be a way for Superman to charge up quickly and be stronger than he was. So it works in a theoretical and symbolic way."
Snyder answers a question with the word "symbolic". Color me surprised. If Superman really wanted to charge up as fast as possible, surely he'd do it nude? ;)
 
In the comics John Jones was one of Clark's High School teachers, and the Town Doctor was a Manhunter.

Maybe in this Universe J'onn's spent the last 35 years living as Martha Kent making love to Bull Durham?

It took us 3 days to watch this movie, because the wife needed mental health breaks.

Excellent movie.
 
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Watching the original version now. It’s amazing how rushed it feels now. Never occurred to me how convenient that drawing in the Icelandic town was.
 
Okay.. Not bad, 100% better than the Whedon version. If this version ( undoubatbly pruned abit) was the version on the screen, would we have gotten a #2? Maybe? Would have done better. Basically the same movie, just more well put together.

Now.. Will there be a #2 and 3? I would like it in some format, be it Book, Comic, or Animated, if not in Live action.
 
I feel like now having seen both versions that we would probably have gotten the best version if WB had originally mandated a three hour cut (or three and a bit) instead of two. That would leave the freedom for much of the character work, but would strip the movie of its (IMO) excesses. Partially relatedly, I don't think I've ever seen a movie with so much slo-mo before. The film is drowning in it.
 
The telling thing is I didn't realize it was 4 hours. I had intended to take breaks, yet found myself continuing. If that's a symptom of bingeing, then oh well. I was entertained, and engrossed in the proceedings.
It was a foregone conclusion that I'd like this movie better than the theatrical cut.
I guarantee I'd like a Joss Whedon version of the film, if he had the chance to write, produce and direct his own version of the flick start to finish.
Movies by committee, particularly tentpole franchises like this, rarely go well.
Snyder paints with broad strokes. I think a valid criticism is he likes to paint these big pictures at expense of story.
I love BvS, but I can't say, story-wise, it's a great film. That said, I think the warehouse rescue scene is the best Batman action committed to celluloid. I generally apply comic book logic to things like these. I'm pretty forgiving in that regard.
I am happy he was able to get this version out. It encourages dialogue, and that's always a good thing.
In short, I enjoyed it, but feel an edit would be in order to make it great. Slow-mo is awesome. It suggests a comic frame...but I have to admit, it's way too gratuitous.
The epilogue is superfluous. Especially if this is supposedly it. Snyder got a second bite at the apple, and while I can't suppose to know his mind, I thought it somewhat specious to include an ending that screams sequel.
 
The whole point was to allow Snyder to make the movie he wanted back then. That’s why he didn’t alter the ending.
 
The whole point was to allow Snyder to make the movie he wanted back then. That’s why he didn’t alter the ending.
Was it? Because he filmed most of the epilogue in 2020.
I'm not adverse to the idea, but I think if he was given the opportunity to wrap it up, he should have.
The open ended aspect seems like a hope on his part that his fans would demand #restorethesnyderverse.
Absolute conjecture on my part.
 
Was it? Because he filmed most of the epilogue in 2020.
I'm not adverse to the idea, but I think if he was given the opportunity to wrap it up, he should have.
The open ended aspect seems like a hope on his part that his fans would demand #restorethesnyderverse.
Absolute conjecture on my part.
Martian Manhunter was supposed to be in it but the actor wasn’t available at the time it was filmed. Since he was now, they added it.
The Joker scene was done solely for the fans to give Batman and Joker a scene together. It was one of the best scenes in the film IMO.
 
Barry said "Lois Lane is the Key" in Batman V Superman.

So in the cursed earth timeline Lois Didn't bring Clark out of the Zombie Craziness, and that's why Superman is Darkseid's stooge, and was not there to stop the invasion.

Although...

Why is Bruce still getting the dreams, if Lois fixed Clark, and stopped the invasion?
 
Perfectly fine? Zack Snyder's Superman is a whiny, emo, self-appointed martyr! Nothing about his personality says "hero."

He wasn't "whiny" or "emo". Unless you've never hung out with anyone other than loud mouthed assholes. I grew up in a relatively rural area and Clark in MoS has the same soft spoken manner and bearing of plenty of kids, not to mention farm kids, I knew. Certainly more in line with my experience of actual soft spoken people than pretty much every other iteration.

His "personality"? Um....what? Because he wasn't rattling off safety statistics or saying "And remember kids.......(fill in the blank with "eat your vegetables"...or..."take your vitamins"?) I used to be on a volunteer fire department out in the sticks as a teenager. Most of these guys showed up, did the job, and left. To the people in this community, these people were heroes. Like this Superman, that they did this of their own free will, on their own free time, with no thought of thanks or reward spoke enough of what their "personality" was. That's a heroes "personality" to me. YMMV

As for emo whining....some posters have spent literal YEARS engaged in emo / edgelord whining about these films on this board. So I can't take any complaints of "whining" in these films seriously.

Now I understand that for all its faults, the Whedon cut at least has humor, which is a damn sight better than watching Zack Snyders Manic Depression (with SFX) for four hours.

Joss Whedon has never crafted a joke or humorous moment that didn't scream "see how clever, witty and funny I am!!!1!!one!"

Jonathan is the one who talks about how the world can't handle someone so superior as Clark

At literally no point does Jonathan talk about how the world can't handle someone as "superior" as Clark. His fear was how the world would react to something as *different* as Clark, an actual alien. Because people are largely fearful creatures and plenty are hateful to boot. The last four years of Trump showed that whatever delusions of progress and enlightened thinking we may have had about this country have been shown to be bullshit. Hate crimes at an all time high, a resurgence in White Nationalism, attempts to restrict voting in minority areas...fear mongering by Trump and his propagandists about immigrants and people who were seeking asylum from actual tyranny.

And it worked.

On half the goddamn country.

That's the world you live in right now. A country where half the population engaged in mass fear and hate induced pants shitting over immigrants, black lives, Asians, etc. Bought into so much bullshit that they led an insurrection against the lawful government of this country. So Jonathan Kents belief that people (and not just people here in the States) might freak the fuck out over a godlike alien were perfectly believable.

and urges him to let innocent people die to protect himself.

He literally didn't do that either as evidenced by the fact that he didn't say "yes". He said "maybe" as in "maybe...I don't know." Like any honest person who knows they don't have the answer to a tough question. He also goes on to essentially say "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" by saying "there's more at stake here than just our lives". Proof of actual alien life would be revolutionary in so many ways and would effect massive social upheaval. Go watch "Contact" for just a taste of how humanity would react. It's not going to be like it was in Superman: The Movie where "I'm from an alien world" is no different than if he'd said "I'm from Fresno".

he's angry and isolated and resentful of having to help people,

Feels isolated? Probably.
Angry? No. Sounds like projection, as does "resentful of having to help people."

And who said he "had" to help people? No one. He did it anyway.

This Superman has been helping people since he was a child. "I just wanted to help" is what he tells Jonathan after defying his lessons of not revealing himself. We then see him helping people multiple times. Never looking for glory, never looking for adulation. But since he didn't deliver a public service announcement about airline safety, or spout off useless platitudes, you may have mistaken that as being "resentful", but it's not.

The fact is, unlike the Christopher Reeve Superman, this one was helping people since he was a kid. Meanwhile Reeve Superman doesn't do jack shit to help a single person until he goes to the Fortress and gets his marching orders from his Space Daddy. Who tells him who and what he's "supposed" to be. While Cavil Superman, with the exception of once, is shown defying those who tell him or caution him not to help people. Even Lois Lane tells him, in one of the most pivotal scenes in MoS, that she could sense that not helping was NOT an option for him. It wasn't a bombastic moment, no long winded speeches, no swelling music, but it summed up who Superman is better than any filmed iteration.

"I sense not helping people is NOT an option for you"

THAT is Superman.

Angry, resentful people don't waste time helping people. They spend years on websites complaining about movies they didn't like.

which makes it hard to credit how Clark goes from that outlook, to an actual hero.

Again.....he was helping people since he was a kid. Lois Lane said that she sensed that not helping people was NOT an option for him. He was an actual hero the moment he saved those kids lives and everyone afterwards...from the waitress, to the oil rig workers to the entire planet by the end of the movie.

It's in Beavis. "Be their hero, Clark. Be their monument, be their angel, be anything they need you to be ... or be none of it. You don't owe this world anything."

Essentially "choose the path you feel is right, I'll support it" which is what any non-asshole parent tells their kid. They don't railroad them into being something they don't want to be. But she knew, based on the fact that he helped people, non-stop, even before he was Superman that he was going to continue to help people until the day he died, even if it killed him, and it did. Before Zod came to Earth, she could live with the belief that nothing could hurt him and he would die of natural causes. Now she saw that he could be hurt. That he could be killed. That, because he's operating in public, he could be smeared and torn down, relentlessly by either fearful people or those with an agenda. As a mother, she didn't want him getting dragged into the mud by hateful or fearful people, but she supported his decision even though as a mother, she probably didn't like it. He's doing this on his own free time, of his own free will with no thought of thanks or reward. So no, he doesn't owe the world a thing. But he still does it anyway.

That's what makes him a hero.

That's what makes him Superman.
 
The crashed Kryptonian ships states when they've revived Superman that: "The future has now taken root in the present". This has cemented the bad future, as witnessed by Cyborg as well, as something unavoidable.

The implication in the last nightmare Bruce has is that it's somehow Batman himself who is the reason for all the failed timelines. He has to die to stop the loop.

That could be true if it was meant to be Bruce who was killed by Darkseid in the Batcave rather than Lois.
 
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