What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[CorporalCaptain]

But at least the Founder genocide was the "bad guys" plan...

Yeah, this was one of the ways that DS9 sometimes split the difference.

To its credit,* DS9 didn't always take this easy way out. More than once, Sisko got his own hands dirty, whether directly, as in "For the Uniform," or more indirectly when he employed a proxy, as in "In the Pale Moonlight."

* - Good drama often involves characters wrestling with the seemingly irresolvable, sometimes unsuccessfully.

There is no contradiction in positing that Federation ideals lean one way, but good drama dictates that circumstances pull characters the other way.

 

[Lord Garth]

But at least the Founder genocide was the "bad guys" plan...

"Bad guys" who hadn't run out of options yet and tried to wipe out the Founders because they wanted to, versus "good guys" who didn't want to destroy Qo'noS but felt like they actually had run out of options. Cornwell didn't push back at all when Burnham came up with a solution. Cornwell wanted someone to say they'd found another way, even if she couldn't see one herself.

 

[Oddish]

I was referring to the attempted genocide of the Founders.

The Jem'Hadar were the Dominion's fists, the Vorta its voice, and the Founders its brain. Since the Vorta weren't really essential and the Jem'Hadar could just be endlessly replaced, the Founders were the most logical target.

 

[dupersuper]

The Jem'Hadar were the Dominion's fists, the Vorta its voice, and the Founders its brain. Since the Vorta weren't really essential and the Jem'Hadar could just be endlessly replaced, the Founders were the most logical target.

I'm saddened by the morality of the genocide, not critiquing the logic of the choice of target

 

[at Quark's]

I'm saddened by the morality of the genocide, not critiquing the logic of the choice of target

I agree to that. Still, I think it threw up that one important question that really hadn't been asked on Star Trek before in that form: What do you do if you're confronted with that superior and ruthless enemy, and the deus ex machina moment that will keep your hands relatively clean doesn't come? No Kirk to talk the enemy computer into self-destruct? No Picard to tell data he has to enter the 'sleep' command? How far is the Federation willing to go to survive?

 

[Oddish]

And don't forget that the Dominion was guilty of at least one attempted genocide itself (most of the 800 million Cardassians who died in the finale were undoubtedly innocent). Who knows how many other races they obliterated under similar circumstances, on their side of the wormhole.

 

[Farscape One]

Or the Blight in "THE QUICKENING".

They did worse than commit genocide. They allowed a slow death of the civilization through an engineered disease.

 

[at Quark's]

Or the Blight in "THE QUICKENING".

Yeah, that one was outright sadistic. Although there may have been a practical purpose too: it provided the Dominion with a deterring example to those that would oppose the Dominion both more horrifying and longer lasting than immediate execution. (pointing to a race that's slowly been dying off since 200 years due to an engineered horrible disease is bound to make more impact than a reference to a quick mass extermination that happened two centuries ago).

 

[Damian]

That is a case where Star Trek forces us into ethical dilemmas.

The attempted genocide of the Founders is one of those dilemmas. The Dominion and the Founders are hardly an innocent party here. They have engaged in genocide themselves, as well as tyranny. They undermine other powers and start a war with the Federation and their allies. And there's no doubt what their goals are. The complete subjugation of the Alpha Quadrant, and anyone who tries to stop them will be wiped out. The Dominion has absolutely no qualms about committing genocide. And worse, they don't care. Weyoun casually talks about eradicating Earth with about as much emotion as I would talking about baking an apple pie.

So in comes Section 31 and the Founder plague they created to wipe out the Founders. The question is, how far would you go to protect the Federation from the Dominion? You're literally facing a question of your very existence and way of life if the Dominion wins the war. In general, the Federation would be horrified at the prospect of committing genocide, or even thinking about it. But now they are facing the very real prospect of complete and utter defeat to an enemy whose goal is utter domination and if necessary, destruction, with as much concern as we would have stepping on a blade of grass.

So, is Section 31 justified? I don't think it's so black and white. If those are the choices you face, what do you do? There are no easy answers.

 

[Oddish]

And unfortunately, given the nature of the Great Link, you can't easily seperate the murderous changelings out from the ones who would prefer less draconian tactics. If any existed in the first place.

Even a terrorist hiding behind a child can be eliminated by a precisely placed sniper round. But what do you do when the enemy and the innocent are literally mixed together?

 

[ozzfloyd]

At that point in the war, if you can wipe out the Founders, you do it.

 

[Orphalesion]

And don't forget that the Dominion was guilty of at least one attempted genocide itself (most of the 800 million Cardassians who died in the finale were undoubtedly innocent). Who knows how many other races they obliterated under similar circumstances, on their side of the wormhole.

Or the Blight in "THE QUICKENING".

They did worse than commit genocide. They allowed a slow death of the civilization through an engineered disease.

Exactly, the Founders are in some ways like the Borg in that there's very little diplomacy possible. The Founders would kill billions of people without thinking if it served their plans, and the Borg see all sapient life just as raw materials.
In special cases like that drastic measures are an option, imo.

 

[Oddish]

That's why the Federation needs an organization like Section 31. To do what needs to be done to keep the Federation alive, however morally repugnant that might be.

 

[cooleddie74]

I don't mind Section 31 existing. I just don't want an entire series based around it.

 

[fireproof78]

I have no issue with S31 existing or a show existing about it. Honestly, for me, I personally welcome more exploration of most, if not all, Trek concepts, no matter how unpopular.

 

[Orphalesion]

That's why the Federation needs an organization like Section 31. To do what needs to be done to keep the Federation alive, however morally repugnant that might be.

But that's also the danger of them existing, you'd need someone to make sure that they only do repugnant things when there's really no other way of dealing with a situation and when the target of the repugnant things is really as unyielding as the Founders or the Borg.

I don't mind Section 31 existing. I just don't want an entire series based around it.

Agreed.

 

[UssGlenn]

And unfortunately, given the nature of the Great Link, you can't easily seperate the murderous changelings out from the ones who would prefer less draconian tactics. If any existed in the first place.

Even a terrorist hiding behind a child can be eliminated by a precisely placed sniper round. But what do you do when the enemy and the innocent are literally mixed together?

I'm tempted to redefine the founders as a single organism, which has temporarily autonomous parts. Then we get to debate if it still counts as genocide.

 

[Lord Garth]

Shifting gears, at least on my end.

I like the long time they spent circling around the Enterprise in TMP. It helped us to really get to see and really get to know the Refit Enterprise (and the Enterprise-A by extension). You can get attached to the ship.

The Enterprise-E and the Kelvin Enterprise? Bing, bang, boom. We don't get to see much of them on the outside. And only get to see them in three films each. Inside and out. Six hours of screen-time total for both ships. So the lack of spending much time on them doesn't give you any attachment, or at least as much attachment.

 

[fireproof78]

I definitely feel more attached to the refit than others, excepting maybe the original. But, the Kelvin Enterprise still moves me.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Love the refit. Ambiguous about the Kelvin.