What Era and Places Did Burnham's Mother Visit?

[Timo]

There is no unless there. We see Michael deploy some signs. We also clearly see they are not the original seven, for three objectively obvious reasons. This is a contradiction unless one is deliberately fabricating some nonsense about it not being that.

I mean, wow. You simply can't comprehend anything, can you? Your viewpoint is absolutely dependent on your ability to explain away the outright inconsistencies I outlined. Sticking your fingers in your ears is mere intellectual cowardice on your behalf - although possibly your only retort, as you have been proven wrong by the facts of the matter rather than by any sort of a need to argue. There is no "viewpoint" - there are three factual points I spelled out for you. If comprehension still remains a problem, I fall short on means to help you out.

The only thing you do seem to get even halfway right is that S2 does tell us that Michael set the signs. It also establishes that she did not. And the lie of the fact is the point of interest. Your bizarre obstructionism isn't.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DigificWriter]

We see Michael deploy some signs. We also clearly see they are not the original seven, for three objectively obvious reasons.

No.

You are creating separate instances in your mind when there is zero evidence as presented that we saw separate instances.

 

[Tuskin38]

never finding out the identity of the captain the Discovery was supposed to meet on Vulcan (it was Pike

That's a theory, not fact.

We don't know who that captain was going to be.

 

[Tuskin38]

There were 14 signals. The 7 that appeared all at once at the start of the season, then the 7 more that appeared one at a time throughout the season.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Red_burst

But Burnham at the end of the season says she only needs to do 5 jumps.

 

[DigificWriter]

That's a theory

It's not a theory.

It's an analysis of the facts - both onscreen and behind-the-scenes - as presented.

 

[Tuskin38]

It's not a theory.

It's an analysis of the facts - both onscreen and behind-the-scenes - as presented.

There are no facts to back up your claim that Pike was the Captain at Vulcan.

It is never mentioned in any BTS material nor is it ever said on screen.

You don't want to be wrong. You do this all the time.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's not a theory.

It's an analysis of the facts - both onscreen and behind-the-scenes - as presented.

Nah. Pike was never the Captain on Vulcan.

 

[Tuskin38]

No.

You are creating separate instances in your mind when there is zero evidence as presented that we saw separate instances.

We don't see Michael deploy the original 7 signals.

We see her deploy the individual ones we saw in the previous episodes, but not the seven simultaneous signals mentioned at the start of the season.

 

[nic3636]

I still don't get where the seven simultaneous signals at the beginning of the season came from. Also, did they ever explain how the suit made the signals? Was it some kind of feature Burnham's parents built into it?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I still don't get where the seven simultaneous signals at the beginning of the season came from.

The previous writer/producers.

 

[F. King Daniel]

There was one set of signals. They were all presumably set to reach their final destinations in time with a lil' detour to the moment they all appear at once setting the whole season into motion. They make it pretty clear they're waiting for the signals to reappear in some kind of order.

Spock saw them because he'd melded with Gabrielle and she'd seen them over and over on her temporal journeys.

 

[dupersuper]

This argument, as well as the argument about audiences never finding out the identity of the captain the Discovery was supposed to meet on Vulcan (it was Pike), is pure fabrication that exists only as an excuse to criticize the plot mechanics of Season 2.

They were going to meet the captain of a different ship before said ship was damaged; the event that necessitated him leaving said ship? On Vulcan for some reason?

 

[DigificWriter]

Pike taking Command of the Discovery was planned, as evidenced by the fact that he came aboard prepared to cite the specific regulations allowing him to do so and had a briefing about the Red Bursts fully prepared and memorized.

 

[Tuskin38]

Pike taking Command of the Discovery was planned, as evidenced by the fact that he came aboard prepared to cite the specific regulations allowing him to do so and had a briefing about the Red Bursts fully prepared and memorized.

That doesn't mean he was the Captain waiting on Vulcan.

Why would Starfleet tell them to go to Vulcan if he was going to meet them?

People on the show even said that at the time they wrote the ending of Season 1, they had no idea what they were going to do in Season 2, All they knew is what they wanted to end with the Enterprise showing up.

 

[dupersuper]

Pike taking Command of the Discovery was planned, as evidenced by the fact that he came aboard prepared to cite the specific regulations allowing him to do so and had a briefing about the Red Bursts fully prepared and memorized.

I believe he cited the specific regulations precisely because it wasn't planned. He basically commandeered their vehicle.

 

[Dryson]

I wonder what came of her Angel Suit. She herself seemed to survive getting sucked to the time-wormhole (and then presumably belched onto Terralysium) just fine. Is the suit on Terralysium, too? And is it in working order, save for the hole in the chest and the missing time crystal?

How Gabrielle got off Terralysium is not known yet. Would her ride have been willing to make a detour to Boreth for more crystals, and then to a supernova? Warp travel across the whole galaxy is supposedly quite difficult in the 32nd century, and Burnham never managed to get from the vicinity of Terralysium to the vininity of Ni'Var during her year of travels...

Did Gabrielle do the Seven Signs? Michael sure as hell didn't. Is there a third Suit out there, perhaps? (No good reason why there wouldn't be - the specs are well known to S31, and 23rd century tech is up to the task of building unlimited numbers of those.)

Timo Saloniemi

I doubt if Burnham caused it to self destruct.

 

[Timo]

There was one set of signals. They were all presumably set to reach their final destinations in time with a lil' detour to the moment they all appear at once setting the whole season into motion. They make it pretty clear they're waiting for the signals to reappear in some kind of order.

Spock saw them because he'd melded with Gabrielle and she'd seen them over and over on her temporal journeys.

This covers one of the three things fatally wrong with the "Michael dunnit" claim. But it's obviously not what the episode would state nor what the writers would have intended - a Sign making a detour through the past.

It still doesn't account for the other two things fatally wrong, though. Spock has this map. He eventually shares. And even if he didn't, everybody would have seen the actual Seven Signs on the sky at that point. Nevertheless, nobody knows where the Signs will next appear - the ones created by Michaels do not appear where the Seven did. So is there a spatial detour there as well, in addition to the temporal one? And why would these detours happen? Surely they serve no purpose for Michael, and they're a rather unlikely bug to be found in the system for any other reason.

The third thing fatally wrong is of course the spatial distribution thing - not because I'd want to argue obscure cartography, but because the S2 plotline suddenly lurches from an explicit "we can only access one of these without spore drive, and we're the only ones with the drive" to an explicit "we can access all of these with regular warp, and everybody else can, too", which changes everything. At best, we can treat the Original Seven as some sort of vile offal from the process of creating the Relevant Seven: Michael lays breadcrumbs for the heroes to follow, but for completely unknown reasons also happens to create a separate set of Irrelevant Seven that are not supposed to be followed (well, six of them, anyhow) and serve no practical purpose.

They never did, really. The Original Seven, that is. They were supposed to be a big deal, but in the end, nobody cared. In many ways, the first half of S2 was the fundamentally faulty one, even if probably more fun. The second half ended up being semi-coherent until "Sorrow II", and since it was the longer half, it also accrued a greater number of inconsistencies of its own (in addition to the fatal three). But at least it worked, after a fashion.

I doubt if Burnham caused it to self destruct.

Gabrielle's suit, you mean? Probably not: the spectacular kaboom of Michael's suit was due to the time crystal, and Gabrielle didn't have one. But she could always have used a sledgehammer.

Not that it would matter much, because making the suits is not difficult. It can be done in the 23rd century, it sure can be done in the 32nd. All you need is instructions, and those were lying around in the 23rd, despite the Federation's topmost cape-and-dagger folks being in charge of keeping the project secret. Perhaps the Time Wars came to be because everybody built an Angel Suit for themselves?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Was there a reason for the red angel saving Terralysium or was it mercy ?

 

[Timo]

The chain of events started when Gabrielle B. was yanked to the future and to the planet that would become Terralysium. She sort of became stuck there, the suit always returning there on its own. So while it was nice for the people in the church not to die in an air raid, Gabrielle probably did it largely because she needed a base of operations that wasn't completely desolate and devoid of resources.

And since she was fighting Control, it was nice that the folks she abducted didn't bring advanced tech with them. (Although apparently they were from an era where at least a few mobile phones could have been present, giving Control a way in...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dryson]

Gabrielle's suit, you mean? Probably not: the spectacular kaboom of Michael's suit was due to the time crystal, and Gabrielle didn't have one. But she could always have used a sledgehammer.

I forget which episode it was, but at the end Pike and Spock confirm a "signal" some 50,000 light years away.

Doubting the TOS/Discovery era Enterprise has sensor capabilities to scan 50,000 light years away, other stations must have been monitoring for the signal of the Red Angel emerging from the black hole. If the Red Angel has exploded it wouldn't have sent a signal of where it was, unless the signal was a sign that it had actually been destroyed.

Does Burnhams suit having a Klingon Time Crystal mean that the Klingons might possibly have altered the fate of the suit itself?