MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"

[Jayson1]

I don't think I am. The movie is badly written and written close to 20 years ago. Before Twitter or even social media being spearheaded by Rick Berman. They might have been ignorant in their phrasing but it doesn't feel like a attempt to do some kind of Edgy joke to me . I can't think of many jokes during that era where they would go for a mean spirted vibe in the humor. Just safe vanilla stuff. Jason

 

[Awesome Possum]

I don't think I am. The movie is badly written and written close to 20 years ago. Before Twitter or even social media being spearheaded by Rick Berman. They might have been ignorant in their phrasing but it doesn't feel like a attempt to do some kind of Edgy joke to me . I can't think of many jokes during that era where they would go for a mean spirted vibe in the humor. Just safe vanilla stuff. Jason

Trans people existed before there was social media, I'm not sure what any of this even has to do with social media or why you'd even bring it up. I'm pretty sure the writer had some awareness of trans people given the use of the word as a sort of third or different gender. And while it is safe, vanilla stuff to you it isn't to other people. You can't assume that everyone feels like you about something just so you can dismiss it completely.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Trans people existed before there was social media, I'm not sure what any of this even has to do with social media or why you'd even bring it up. I'm pretty sure the writer had some awareness of trans people given the use of the word as a sort of third or different gender. And while it is safe, vanilla stuff to you it isn't to other people. You can't assume that everyone feels like you about something just so you can dismiss it completely.

Earlier in the thread a non native English speaking member said that when they saw this movie, the translated phrase was "neither male nor female" which when dealing with aliens is a possibility and not a joke, or at least not the joke you think it is.

Moties from Larry Niven's Eye in the Mote of God are a "transpecies" by your definition. A life cycle that requires the changing of gender many times over before it ends. Which was all about an uncontrollable birthrate than anything close to transrights.

 

[NCC-73515]

You can't assume that everyone feels like you about something just so you can dismiss it completely.

That is always the key in these discussions

 

[Therin of Andor]

Picard cracking jokes.

He was drunk. Have you ever been to a wedding?

Also Riker was marrying Troi instead of Seven of Nine for some reason.

Jeri Ryan was supposed to be supplying intel to Picard. When she turned down the offer of a role in "Nemesis", the writers rewrote it for Admiral Janeway.

 

[Spectre Of The Fun]

For trans people it has an extra layer of meaning since once they are living as who they really are people start to actually see them as the person that they really are. and not someone they were forced to be. There’s an even more wonderful moment where they actually get to see themselves in the mirror for the first time. It’s something that I will always cherish.

I wanted to highlight this because I know something about what you are speaking to here. I can imagine what "to see themselves in the mirror for the first time" must mean. I can also see who you are looking at your pictures here and it's beautiful. The same with Jinn and I'm sorry to the other trans board members that I don't know are trans. In the pictures you have shared I see a human person that while very pretty in a physical sense is finally secure and comfortable in herself. That's the most important thing and it's great and I'm so happy for you!

I haven't caught up with all of this thread (being away for awhile) but I can see once again you have to lead the way for those of us that are trans against those that don't understand or don't want to (fortunately I think a minority of posters). So thank you for doing that work in the informed, experienced and strong manner that you have done it. *You write so well you should be getting paid for it, fiction or nonfiction, and no matter the topic.

I also saw what you said about knowing that you were trans as young as kindergarten. I experienced the same thing by that age and I think even a bit younger. Yes it's 100% real just as I once saw a poster here say she's always known from a young age that she's a straight cis female. It's also true when you are trans and you could know very young. I did.


*many posters here are excellent writers that should be getting paid or paid more for writing.

 

[Jayson1]

Trans people existed before there was social media, I'm not sure what any of this even has to do with social media or why you'd even bring it up. I'm pretty sure the writer had some awareness of trans people given the use of the word as a sort of third or different gender. And while it is safe, vanilla stuff to you it isn't to other people. You can't assume that everyone feels like you about something just so you can dismiss it completely.

It's not about how aware he is but whether or not he knew the word was offensive. That is why I see it as being more ignorant of phrasing than him trying to make what would be a edgy joke. Why is the audience suppose to laugh just because Data says transgendered? I have seen plenty of transphobic jokes over the years and even though they were offensive I at least I understood the logic of the joke but I don't get this one.

Jason

 

[Awesome Possum]

It's not about how aware he is but whether or not he knew the word was offensive. That is why I see it as being more ignorant of phrasing than him trying to make what would be a edgy joke. Why is the audience suppose to laugh just because Data says transgendered? I have seen plenty of transphobic jokes over the years and even though they were offensive I at least I understood the logic of the joke but I don't get this one.

Jason

It’s not that it’s the word itself that’s offensive, it’s using trans people as the butt of a joke. And it doesn’t matter if you get it or not, it’s a shitty thing to do.

 

[DonIago]

This reminds me a bit of when I've said something at face-value only to have someone react under the belief that I was speaking sarcastically. I'll be the first to admit that I have a flair for sarcasm, and I don't blame people for misconstruing me...it takes two to have a misunderstanding...but if people assume I'm being sarcastic and don't say anything to me about it, well, there's not much I can do about a problem that I don't know exists.

 

[NCC-73515]

It’s not that it’s the word itself that’s offensive, it’s using trans people as the butt of a joke. And it doesn’t matter if you get it or not, it’s a shitty thing to do.

nobody laughed when he said it - why would it be a joke in a movie when nobody reacts in that scene?

 

[MakeshiftPython]

For what it's worth, here's how it was written exactly on the very page of the script, rather than going by the transcripts of chakoteya.net that a previous poster quoted.

"Ladies and Gentlemen and invited
Tran gendered species..."

So it would seem "transgendered" was actually what Spiner said on the set as opposed to using the exact phrasing on the page.

 

[Awesome Possum]

It still looks like you're all trying to find ways to justify it instead of just saying it was one of the many failures of the Berman era when it came to LGBTQ people, there are lot. I get it, I love Trek too and especially that era since that's when I was growing up, but they really dropped the ball when it came to LGBTQ people and we can blame Rick Berman for most of it.

 

[Lord Garth]

That's evidence showing Data was aware about misusing the word, cryptically alluding to its incorrect conjugation.

That's a rationalization after the fact. It was a stupid line. And there were a lot of stupid lines in those movies. Insurrection had the infamous, "And have you noticed how your boobs have started to firm up?" I cringed at that line even when I was 19.

The movies after Star Trek IV kept trying up the jokes, and most of the time it came off as forced. The harder they tried, the more they fell on their faces. The best humor is natural and unforced.

 

[Nerys Myk]

What would "Tran gendered" even mean? More likely a typo.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

It still looks like you're all trying to find ways to justify it instead of just saying it was one of the many failures of the Berman era when it came to LGBTQ people, there are lot. I get it, I love Trek too and especially that era since that's when I was growing up, but they really dropped the ball when it came to LGBTQ people and we can blame Rick Berman for most of it.

I don’t think anyone is denying that Rick Berman utterly failed at LGBT representation. The guy oversaw Trek productions for 18 years and despite attempts by writers to include LGBT characters from the very start (David Gerrold) none have ever made it on the final product.

At least Ira Behr acknowledges that he failed at it with DS9 saying it was inexcusable that they didn’t do that, whereas I don’t think Berman ever really addressed that criticism.

EDIT: never mind, I found this Q&A with Berman providing the most chicken**** answer I’ve ever seen.

https://www.startrek.com/article/rick-berman-answers-your-questions-part-2

Why were there no gay characters on TNG, DS9, Voyager or Enterprise? Was that your decision or the studio’s?


Berman: It was not the studio’s decision. I know that when Gene (Roddenberry) was alive he was very ambiguous about the idea of a gay character or gay characters on the show. He felt it was the right thing to do, but never quite had any idea of how he was going to do it. As Michael Piller had said many times, the idea of seeing two men or two women in Ten-Forward holding hands was not really going to be an effective way of dealing with it. So Gene basically didn’t do anything about it, and then when Michael and I were involved with the concepts of the stories on the show, we just felt it would be better to deal with concepts of prejudice against homosexuality and topics like AIDS metaphorically, in ways other than human gays on board the ship. So we developed a number of different stories that dealt with same-sex relationships, that dealt with metaphorical diseases that were similar to AIDS. But they were all done in alien fashion to try to get people to think about these things as opposed to just hitting it right on the head, which would be having a gay character on the ship. It’s something that Michael and I discussed. It’s something that Brannon Bragaand I discussed, that Jeri Taylor and I discussed, and we never really got around to coming up with a way of just adding a gay character. So we tried to deal with it in a more abstract science-fiction way.


Uh, NO, Rick. Showing a couple holding hands at ten forward would have at least been the minimum of acknowledging that gays exist in the future, and the fact that you dismiss that idea and throw the ball at your employees for not doing it is bull crap.

 

[SJGardner]

I just love how it rhymes so perfectly with J. Michael Straczynski being on the record about making sure to include extras acting as same-sex couples in crowd scenes in Babylon 5 with the rationalization that meeting so many bizarre alien species would surely cause us to view human diversity through an entirely different lens. Granted, he still didn't make the one same-sex relationship between major characters explicit other than a behind-the-scenes acknowledgement of it and one of the characters admitting their feelings a year after the other died, but it was still light-years ahead of what Berman did about the subject.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Why were there no gay characters on TNG, DS9, Voyager or Enterprise? Was that your decision or the studio’s?


Berman: It was not the studio’s decision. I know that when Gene (Roddenberry) was alive he was very ambiguous about the idea of a gay character or gay characters on the show. He felt it was the right thing to do, but never quite had any idea of how he was going to do it. As Michael Piller had said many times, the idea of seeing two men or two women in Ten-Forward holding hands was not really going to be an effective way of dealing with it. So Gene basically didn’t do anything about it, and then when Michael and I were involved with the concepts of the stories on the show, we just felt it would be better to deal with concepts of prejudice against homosexuality and topics like AIDS metaphorically, in ways other than human gays on board the ship. So we developed a number of different stories that dealt with same-sex relationships, that dealt with metaphorical diseases that were similar to AIDS. But they were all done in alien fashion to try to get people to think about these things as opposed to just hitting it right on the head, which would be having a gay character on the ship. It’s something that Michael and I discussed. It’s something that Brannon Bragaand I discussed, that Jeri Taylor and I discussed, and we never really got around to coming up with a way of just adding a gay character. So we tried to deal with it in a more abstract science-fiction way.

This is all bullshit. Roddenberry had been quoted before mentioning that he wanted TNG to do an episode related to AIDS and the studio didn't seem to have problems with other shows having gay characters and storylines. All in the Family was doing it in the 70s. This is all on Berman.

This video covers a lot of how he was responsible and then tried to shift the blame.

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[Jayson1]

I wouldn't put much trust in the idea of Roddenberry wanting it. Never can tell with his motivations because if he wanted it he could have made it happen in season 1 and 2 of TNG. I think Berman though very much didn't want it. I think Berman knew TNG was a show popular with families and he didn't want suburban moms sending letters and causing a fuss because little Billy was exposed to LGBTQ people. Berman himself doesn't strike me as someone very progressive so it's not like he was going to fight back against those concerns.


Jason

 

[krsplat]

That's a rationalization after the fact. It was a stupid line. And there were a lot of stupid lines in those movies.

It's unjustified to attempt derogatory jokes by irrationally insulting people.

It's always disappointing to hear that from friends, family, or just a fictional character, especially when it's not anticipated. If people let bigotry concealed as comedy go unchecked, that discriminatory attitude will just spread to more people. The chance to eliminate such a discriminatory attitude requires a direct confrontation about it.

So, it's bad to call people "transgendered."

That is an insulting slur which can't be obscured by contextualizing it.

 

[DonIago]

I still haven't seen any evidence that this anything other than a poor word-choice used in ignorance of the fact that it was a slur.

Is it so terrible to assume good faith and believe that if they'd realized the term was a slur that they wouldn't have used it?