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Some Questions About Terran Mirror Universes

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DIS has had lines that have implied there's some sort of biological predisposition towards violence and anti-social behavior, especially from Kovich in his scenes about Phillipa and in S1 where they had lines about Terrans preferring the dark.

I just ignore those lines because they're nonsense and because making the Terrans "naturally evil" both goes against the point of the concept (that your environment can change you) and undermines the idea from DS9 that the Terrans could build a better society after liberating themselves from the Alliance.
Given that with Kovick nothing is exactly how it seems I see no reason to take such things strictly literally. Though, it does fit with Kirk's line of "We are killers but we are not going to kill today!" regarding humanity so maybe the violent nature is so far out of line with Trek's exploration of humanity any way.
 
The Mirror Universe was a neat concept, but don't think too hard about it. The farther you move from the point of divergence, the less parallel the universe will become. After a short time there should be little to no similarities.

For example:

COMPUTER: Captain James T. Kirk succeeded to command ISS Enterprise through assassination of Captain Christopher Pike. First action, suppression of Gorlan uprising through destruction of rebel home planet. Second action, execution of five thousand colonists on Vega Nine.

So, Pike was assassinated. Kirk moved on. Everything after the assassination will be different than in our universe. For example, returning Pike to Talos obviously didn't happen. In fact, the Talos mission probably ended quite differently.

Mirror Kirk was ordered to destroy the Halkans. Mirror Kirk would have done so. Mirror Kirk would have moved on.

It's just too inconceivable to believe that the similarities would continue and continue and continue despite the drastic differences between the universes.

Still makes for entertaining stories. Just don't think too hare about it.

Dang, there's a potentially fun story with mirror universe Talosians just waiting to happen. What did Pike do to defeat them anyway, wear a hat that was made from aluminium foil that was also shaped like a big cone but with teensy radar dish atop it, which and had the brand name "U.D.U.N.C.E.L.S." emblazoned on it? :devil:

Outside of the Trek universe, eh - so to speak, how popular were parallel universes, et al, in the 1960s? Was a "mirror universe" the closest thing they could come up with? Using an allusion for audience benefit? Or something else?

TOS gives me the impression that few if any theories were around and it might have been a progenitor of the concept, or were using simpler terms so we could get to the action and skimpier outfits.

DS9 adhered to this one mirror strand, which YMMV in terms of how enthralling all those episodes were, while TNG's "Parallels" finally made canon that there are infinite other possibilities and not "just the one" as such.

1000% agreed on "too inconceivable" - it's like suggesting there's a planetary calamity every 1000 years as if all the other itty bitty years don't count. I mean, what happened in 928BC - relatively speaking was pretty big back then and back then the peoples of the Earth were a tad more myopic. Or maybe less in some ways, but it's neither here nor there as it's not even 900BC anymore... or 3000BC or 1000AD (and trust me, the 10th century AD was a real snoozefest compared to the 11th and 12th ones... meh, they all suck, it's all good.)
 
It would be ironic if the Terran Empire placed more emphasis on environmentalism, and consequently humpback whales never went extinct, so the probe showed up, did their chatty-chat, and left again. That said, I can't imagine the Empire would just let the probe do that, but it's an amusing thought.

If the whales hadn't gone extinct the whale probe would have no reason to show up.
 
If the whales hadn't gone extinct the whale probe would have no reason to show up.
If the whales were hunted to extinction in the Prime Universe, you really think the same didn't happen in the Mirror Universe? Or did the Mirror Whales fight back until eventually an uneasy accord was struck between human and whale?
 
If the whales hadn't gone extinct the whale probe would have no reason to show up.

If the whales were hunted to extinction in the Prime Universe, you really think the same didn't happen in the Mirror Universe? Or did the Mirror Whales fight back until eventually an uneasy accord was struck between human and whale?

Good question.

But why did the humpback whales go extinct in 1986?

Natural Selection through being hunted by man? Not very likely.

There is a 300 year span Between 1986 and 2286, the timeline of Star Trek IV. The Vulcans had made contact with Earth in 1957, some 29 years prior to Kirk and Crew traveling back in time to 1986. Which was some 329 years prior to the Whale Probe arriving at Earth. The Vulcans were intrigued by Sputnik and began to investigate, Carbon Creek : Ent. The Enterprise also went back in time to 1969, TOS: Yesterday is Tomorrow, which was 12 years after the Vulcans became intrigued with Earth and 17 years prior to the HMS Bounty arriving in 1986. Kirk also mentioned to Captain Christopher that he had 'better hurry,' as he only had 15 years. What took place in 1984 or 15 years after Yesterday is Tomorrow? Two years later Kirk and crew show up looking for humpbacked whales in 1986. Did the Vulcans detect the Enterprise in the Sol System in 1969, which was the first year that humanity travelled to the Moon? An event that the Vulcans would most likely have been monitoring since 1957 after becoming intrigued Sputnik. It appears that small shiny things seem to attract the Vulcans the best. In 2063 Zephram Cochrane made his first warp flight that attracted a Vulcan survey ship that had just been 'happening through' the solar system. For 106 years the Vulcans would have in fact been watching and surveying Earth, after being intrigued by the Earth developing their space program so rapidly.

What I am getting at is this, the whale probe didn't show up for 329 years later? At max warp possible, how far would the probe have traveled in 329 years?

I seriously doubt that animal conservationists would have allowed humpback whales to be hunted to extinction. Or was the hunting of the whales extinction part of the alien Threat Force's incursion into the past hoping to draw the whale probe to Earth, some 329 years later? Could it be possible that a threat force from the future, an enemy of the Vulcans who was watching the Vulcans watch Earth, went back in time and killed off the Humpbacked Whales knowing that the Whale Probe would come to inquire about their disappearance?

Could the threat force alien species have known that the communication methods of the Whale Probe would destroy Star Fleet HQ where such destruction would have allowed threat forces in the ST:IV era to launch massive attacks against Starfleet after the Whale Probe had destroyed Starfleet HQ and returned to where ever it had come from?

What was so important for Captain Christopher to do in 1984, two years before Kirk and Crew arrived to save the last two humpback whales? Was Captain Christopher made into a Temporal Agent and sent back to Earth to do something in 1984?


Mirror, Mirror

In 2257, Michael Burnham travelled to a Terran parallel universe, Disco :The Wolf Inside, some ten years before Kirk did in 2267, TOS: Mirror, Mirror.

The Red Angel was an entity sought by both Starfleet and Section 31 in relation to a series of mysterious red bursts that occurred in the late 2250's. The Red Angel suit was a product of the Daedalus Project, a time travel program set up by Section 31 in the 2230s out of concern of a temporal arms race with the Klingons.

From the highlighted section above, we can see that Star Fleet and the Klingons have been engaged in a temporal arms race since the 2230's or 27 years prior to the first Mirror, Mirror Universe appearing. Did the Klingon's create the Terran mirror Universe to trap Burnham and Spock in?

Or

Were the mysterious red bursts detected in 2257 or 2259? The red bursts being detected in 2257 after the Red Angel had been used would be open the door to Burnham possibly being the central starting point of the Terran Mirror Universe. After all Burnham was able to use Red Angel, therefore Red Angel could have tapped into her and transported her to the Terran Universe along with Spock, ten years later. There is a vague connection between Burnham, Spock, Red Angel and the Terran Mirror Universe.

Was it the Klingons who went back in time to 1986 to quietly try and kill the Earth off in the future by eradicating the Humpback Whales in the past that would draw the wrath of the Whale Probe 300 years later? Or could the Romulans and Klingon's both have conspired, together, to eradicate the whales in 1986 to effect the future of the Federation in their favor? After all, the Romulans and Klingons have been allies in the past. We also know that the Hur'q invaded Qo'nos, stole some Klingon artifacts and eventually went extinct but were only in hibernation. The Klingon's reverse engineered Hur'q tech and developed warp drive, which would have brought the Klingon's into contact with the Romulans sometime before 2230.
*An alliance between the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire formed in the mid-23rd century.

With the Hur'q being from the Gamma Quadrant and the Hur'q possibly traveling through the wormhole, the Hur'q could have encountered an alien species that had seen the future, the Burn and post-Burn era, and disliked how Starfleet and the Federation had proceeded and sought to destroy the Federation before it even got started.

Thus there could be some entity inside of the Bajoran Wormhole enlisted the Hur'q to invade Qo'Nos and allowed the Klingon's to capture Hur'q technology to become warp capable. Warp capable enough to travel back in time and effect the Federation's growth by eradicating the whales that drew the whale probe to Earth in hopes of destroying Earth and the Federation when the eradicated humpback whales did not answer. After all we do see the Klingon's destroying an ancient Earth probe in Star Trek V. Why would the Klingons be so interested in 'tracking space junk' unless they were actually looking to destroy any evidence of Earth's past, just like they tried in Star IV.

There is definitely some malevolent force inside of the Bajoran wormhole or on the other side of the Bajoran wormhole that may even be deeper than the Bajor-B'Hava'el system in the Alpha Quadrant. A malevolent force that might be responsible for the timeline shifts and mirror Universes to try and eradicate key members of the Federation or prevent Starfleet from ever happening, where Disco has become the focal point in the entire war that Burnham has been unaware of fighting since the first mirror in 2257. A war that no one realizes they have been fighting except those on the other side of the Bajoran wormhole...
 
All the Mirror Universe episodes were in the same universe. DS9 Mirror Universe episode even mentioned the events of Mirror, Mirror. I imagine all the Star trek parallel universes being around since the beginning of time. Other fans have different stories in their heads, which is cool.

Maybe Mirror Kirk or someone completely different went back in time to kidnap a few whales to save Earth. That sounds like a fun episode. An egotistical and angry starship crew trying to blend in in the 1980s while kidnapping whales, and resisting the urge to murder people while they're at it. Alternatively, maybe the whale probe didn't exist in the mirror universe, but that isn't as fun. Or like Wormhole said, maybe the probe wanted the whales dead, so the probe was super-happy in Star Trek IV. Or like a few people said, maybe the whales prevented their extinction by being badasses.
 
I have my own theory, to wit:

The Mirror Universe at first appears to be an Alternate universe.

The people and organizations of a Mirror Universe appear to undergo a moral inversion. People who are good become evil, people who are evil become good. The United Federation of Planets is often Mirrored as the evil Terran Empire.

However, in a Mirror Universe event, people, organizations and objects are mirrored in a fashion that doesn't make sense or follow accepted continuity and divergence theories. A ship undergoing a Mirror Universe encounter will find that it's mirror counter part has analogs to all of its crew people (At least at first). Objects, being morally neutral will often be duplicated much more directly. A Mirror Universe starship will duplicate its normal universe counterpart in great detail, despite the fact that the evil mirror universe Empire has no reason to put a bowling alley on a constitution class starship. Mirror Universe phasers will be technically identical to normal universe phasers, including a stun setting that would seem out of character for an evil empire.

Mirrored people will be earnestly unpleasant, or if antagonistic, surprisingly pleasant, and remember unlikely backgrounds as clearly and throughly as their normal universe counter part remembers his own history. Some elements however do not change for inexplicable reasons that seem to have more to do with current circumstances. The Halkan Council for example (Mirror, Mirror) was as adamantly peaceful in the Mirror universe as in the prime universe.

The phenomenon raises difficult moral, scientific and especially philosophical questions. The effect seems to be metaphorically similar to the virtual particle phenomenon in quantum physics. The mirrored starship and crew people do not represent an incursion from a stable alternate universe, but a virtual mirror universe. The circumstances "mirrored" at those currently in force, not a progression from events as they would naturally flow. The people of the mirror universe are always concurrent, even if the events of a previous mirror event would have changed things utterly, or should have.

Mirrored ships and crews most often disappear. Very often this is in the context of being "Sent home" to their "Home Universe". Ships and individuals visiting a "mirror universe" will find attempts to return home almost always succeed. This is due to the fact that the energies must balance.

In extreme cases, mirrored people and objects may become stable, "stealing" prerequisite energy from other sources. The energy required is enormous, usually only stellar phenomena throw around that kind of energy. Ion storms, stars and planets undergoing dramatically catastrophic events have generated stable mirror phenomenon.

This raises difficult philosophical questions. In effect the universe may generate a mirror John Smith. Mirror-John will usually be physically identical to Normal John Smith, but will recall a personal history that is a mirror image of Normal John's. Loved ones will become enemies, enemies will become family and friends. Now, in the rare case that Mirror-John becomes stable, what is his relationship to Normal-John? Do his memories amount to a strange stellar phenomenon, or is he remembering a real place? Although Mirror-John Smith's origins are shrouded in doubt, his current existence is real. Does Mirror John Smith share Normal John Smith's citizenship? Is Mirror-John responsible for crimes that he committed in his possible home dimension? Mirrored people often appear to be sociopathic, or at least extremely ruthless. They have the potential to commit horrible crimes. Some have attempted a cultural defense, saying that criminal acts were expected and encouraged in their home culture and therefore, a mirrored person cannot be expected to make a competent assessment of right and wrong. No such defense has succeeded, yet.

It is plain that people created from this phenomenon, those who become permanent, face a long period of adjustment and counseling to become equipped to survive in modern society. Many such people commit violent crimes and wind up imprisoned for long terms. Federation Law is deeply agnostic on the status of such people. Most who encounter stabled mirrored forms simply ignore the strange origin and treat the duplicates as citizens of the Federation who coincidentally bear precise resemblance to other people. Whether John Smith considers Mirror John Smith to be a relative, or pursues any subsequent relationship with him is currently left up to Normal John Smith and Mirror John Smith to work out for themselves.

Other variations, gender reversal, role reversals or perhaps stranger mirror phenomenon are not excluded by the current understanding of the phenomenon, but have not been recorded, yet.

The current record holder for such "Quantum Clones" is Adm Li'ira Mary O'Keefe who now has five stable duplicates. The record for unstable duplicates was more than 285,000 - which the Enterprise-D encountered on stardate 47391.2.during a quantum fissure in the space-time continuum near the Argus subspace telescope array.

The existence of this phenomenon also calls into question the entire concept of alternate universes. Do they exist or are they temporary turbulence in time and space? This question has led to fisticuffs among temporal physicists.


A bit long.
 
The problem with the mirror universe is that it doesn't work. We can see that even in the events that are shown on camera. People get killed all the time in the mirror universe because assassinated or executed for having tried to assassinate someone or because the safeties are off (Trip's facial wound)...etc. You can't expect their counterpart to die at the same time, so that means that they'll go on living, have children who will only exist in one universe and not the other, with time the differences will grow to the point where the two universes will have nothing in common!!
 
From what I have read about the Mirror Universe is, the Mirror Universe is a polar opposite of the Prime Timeline.

For example in the Prime time line of Trek we see mostly sensible Starfleet crew. But in the Mirror Universe, we see irrational behavior. Crew making out in the corridors of the ship for example or Spock using his logic for evil purposes.

In a timeline shift, the crew retains their Prime time line personalities but the events have changed. For example in the Prime time line, The Battle of Axanar, fought between Garth of Izar and Klingon Admiral Kkorhetza zantai-Riskai, Four Years War. Garth eventually defeated Riskai. If Garth had been defeated by Riskai however, the Four Years War would still have been waged. Thus the effects of the time line shift would not really effect the outcome of the future because no one on board either ship had connections with TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy or Disco, except that the win by Garth made it possible for Kirk and Spock to work together as brothers, TOS: Whom Gods Destroy. Even if Garth had lost, Spock still would have worked with Kirk in full capacity where only very slight changes in events would have taken place that would have no effect on the future at all even though a major event in the Prime time line had taken place.
 
From what I have read about the Mirror Universe is, the Mirror Universe is a polar opposite of the Prime Timeline.

For example in the Prime time line of Trek we see mostly sensible Starfleet crew. But in the Mirror Universe, we see irrational behavior. Crew making out in the corridors of the ship for example or Spock using his logic for evil purposes.

In a timeline shift, the crew retains their Prime time line personalities but the events have changed. For example in the Prime time line, The Battle of Axanar, fought between Garth of Izar and Klingon Admiral Kkorhetza zantai-Riskai, Four Years War. Garth eventually defeated Riskai. If Garth had been defeated by Riskai however, the Four Years War would still have been waged. Thus the effects of the time line shift would not really effect the outcome of the future because no one on board either ship had connections with TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy or Disco, except that the win by Garth made it possible for Kirk and Spock to work together as brothers, TOS: Whom Gods Destroy. Even if Garth had lost, Spock still would have worked with Kirk in full capacity where only very slight changes in events would have taken place that would have no effect on the future at all even though a major event in the Prime time line had taken place.

Yeah, and we see complete imbeciles, like Mirror Archer who sleeps with Hoshi after she's already tried to assassinate him once... And guess what happens? She assassinates him for good the second time...
 
Yeah, and we see complete imbeciles, like Mirror Archer who sleeps with Hoshi after she's already tried to assassinate him once... And guess what happens? She assassinates him for good the second time...

It remains unclear if the mirror Archer was killed or just drugged.

Even if Hoshi had killed Archer, both Archer's are from different dimensions that have a separate timeline of events. Therefore Archers death in the mirror universe would have had no effect on the Prime time line at all.

But, if Both Archers had occupied the same time line in either dimension and were killed, then both dimensions would have been effected severely.
 
It remains unclear if the mirror Archer was killed or just drugged.

Even if Hoshi had killed Archer, both Archer's are from different dimensions that have a separate timeline of events. Therefore Archers death in the mirror universe would have had no effect on the Prime time line at all.

But, if Both Archers had occupied the same time line in either dimension and were killed, then both dimensions would have been effected severely.

I don't think it would have been wise of Hoshi to just drug Archer at that point. He would have remained a threat to her for the rest of either his or her life, it depends on who was going to Keel over first. Plus I don't see of what use he could have been to her alive plus he could have had a few sympathizers among the crew, who would have been much more motivated by a leader alive than by one dead.
 
It is possible for a Prime time line to cross over into the Mirror Universe so that two Kirks, for example, struggle and fight each other to the death?
 
It is possible for a Prime time line to cross over into the Mirror Universe so that two Kirks, for example, struggle and fight each other to the death?
The Intendant crosses over to the Prime Universe and interacts with Kira, so yes, it should be possible.
 
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