Some Questions About Terran Mirror Universes

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Dryson, Jan 18, 2021.

  1. Dryson

    Dryson Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    As we know there have been numerous Terran Mirror Universe episodes in Star Trek. The question I have is this. Once a Terran Mirror Universe is created or accessed by the normal timeline, does the Terran Mirror Universe continue to exist once the normal time line leaves the mirror?

    Does the entire mirror of the Terran Universe timeline run parallel to the normal time line, just mirrored? Or is the Terran Universe a mirror of isolated incidents of the normal timeline and doesn't function as the normal timeline does?

    How would the Whale Probe be in a Terran timeline?
     
  2. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    The creative intent seems to be that the Mirror Universe is an alternate dimension that exists independently of but in parallel to the Prime Timeline.

    I imagine the question of the Whale Probe would depend upon the prehistory of their dimension. If the Probe Creators had different motives or a different relationship with prehistoric humpback whales, then the Probe might not even show up, or it might be much more hostile than the Probe of the Prime Timeline.

    We know from DS9's "Crossover" that the Mirror Spock seized military control of the Terran Empire after "Mirror, Mirror" (TOS), so it's possible that the Probe might have contributed to the loss of military forces the Empire had relied upon to prevent foreign states from overrunning them, contributing to the conquest of the Empire by the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. Alternately, maybe the Terrans were much more ruthless in responding to the Probe, and were willing to use subspace weapons to destroy it from a distance and damn the consequences to Earth's surface. Or, maybe the Empire had already fallen by 2286 and the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance just allowed it to devastate Earth's surface. Lots of possibilities!
     
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  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It would be ironic if the Terran Empire placed more emphasis on environmentalism, and consequently humpback whales never went extinct, so the probe showed up, did their chatty-chat, and left again. That said, I can't imagine the Empire would just let the probe do that, but it's an amusing thought.
     
  4. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It motivates people to kill whales instead of saving them.
     
  5. Shawnster

    Shawnster Commodore Commodore

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    The Mirror Universe was a neat concept, but don't think too hard about it. The farther you move from the point of divergence, the less parallel the universe will become. After a short time there should be little to no similarities.

    For example:

    COMPUTER: Captain James T. Kirk succeeded to command ISS Enterprise through assassination of Captain Christopher Pike. First action, suppression of Gorlan uprising through destruction of rebel home planet. Second action, execution of five thousand colonists on Vega Nine.

    So, Pike was assassinated. Kirk moved on. Everything after the assassination will be different than in our universe. For example, returning Pike to Talos obviously didn't happen. In fact, the Talos mission probably ended quite differently.

    Mirror Kirk was ordered to destroy the Halkans. Mirror Kirk would have done so. Mirror Kirk would have moved on.

    It's just too inconceivable to believe that the similarities would continue and continue and continue despite the drastic differences between the universes.

    Still makes for entertaining stories. Just don't think too hare about it.
     
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  6. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    According to Disco season 2, it was Georgiou who encountered and eradicated the Talosians in the MU.
     
  7. Dryson

    Dryson Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What I am trying to understand is whether or not there is a force in the Universe, maybe Temporal Agents, who created the Terran Mirror to effect the future of the Federation?

    Have other species such as the Romulans or Andorians experienced their own version of mirror universes?

    If not, then why is Starfleet the only one being singled out?
     
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  8. somebuddyx

    somebuddyx Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The differences between Prime and Mirror is that Earth was good and founded a Federation and Earth was bad and started an Empire. The other races are meant to be the same, which is indicated in it's first episode by the Halkans being the same in both universes. We see changes in races because of the Empire, like the Klingons and Cardassians teaming up and founding the Alliance. It's possible the Ferengi are different, because in Crossover Quark has no idea what latinum is and Mirror Brunt is a good guy but this could be changes caused by the Empire encountering the Ferengi, perhaps in events not unlike "Acqusition" but a lot eviler.
    People focus on the Mirror Universe title for the universe that was just a name taken to honour the original episode not because things are literally being mirrored. It's just a comic book evil universe counterpart that shouldn't be scrutinised too much. Why do all their mirror counterparts end up in the exact same places? Probably because it's a TV show that wants to make use of the same actors instead of hiring a bunch of randos that we won't care about for an episode.
    It's meant to be the same mirror universe every time it's seen in Trek and any visual differences is just akin to how the TOS Enterprise and the Discovery Enterprise are meant to be the same ship but just different interpretations. This includes dumb plothole retcon crap like The Emperor's New Cloak when the Mirror Universe doesn't have cloaks here. Oh wait, they did in Through the Looking Glass and later/before in In a Mirror Darkly. I guess they don't have "those" cloaks over there. If it were a better episode I probably wouldn't be bothered but it sucks.
    Now, having said all that, I think an actual mirror universe would be pretty cool, where everyone was reversed in personalities and villain nations were good and heroes were bad. It was something I was thinking of when I made the Mirror Universe: Romulans. I imagined matriarchal-led warrior Ferengi, sneaky backstabbing Klingons, heroic Romulans and hippie Changelings spouting phrases like "Be the change you wish to see."
     
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  9. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes. ENT: "In a Mirror, Darkly" takes place entirely in the mirror universe, with no "prime" characters.
    Depends what the story needs? Cochrane shot the Vulcan in MU First Contact instead of shaking hands. Some stuff's a "mirrored" darker version of events, other stuff just totally different.
    Considering it's returning to earth following up on the whales... could be anything depending what earth was like their first visit, whenever that was.
     
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  10. Dryson

    Dryson Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Unless a species went back to the 1980's and repopulated Humpbacked people, then regardless of the timeline switch, the Whale Probe should still visit Earth, regardless of the timeline or mirror.

    Unless the Whale Probe was destroyed enroute by a superior species, which is hard to fathom because the Whale Probe drains the energy from everything it comes across, then the Whale Probe is one of species that isn't effected by a time line shift or a Mirror switch.

    If the Whale Probe isn't present in a Mirrored Universe, then some force has isolated the Federation and woven the mirror around a region of space.

    Remember in the one episode of Enterprise that the interior of the ship was much larger than what we saw from the outside?

    If an alien species is able to use the same technology to increase the volume of the interior of a scout ship, then could it be possible that same species is able to create an alternate reality inside of space to create a Mirror universe in, thus excluding the Whale Probe from the Mirror.

    But if that were true, then why did Phillipa need to use the Guardian of Forever to survive? The Guardian transports us to different timelines along the original time line.

    A Mirror Universe would not be part of the timeline. In order for the Terran MU to exist then the Whale Probe incident would need to have been resolved...lol...the timeline is getting to be a mess.

    Most of the MU incidents take place before the Whale Probe incident, so unless the incursion into Terran MU spans to Star Trek IV, would the Terran MU effect the Whale Probe visiting Earth?

    Something is definitely wrong with the timeline.

    Timeline mechanics and Temporal variations in Trek is an interesting topic for certain.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  11. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    There’s no real explanation for why all the same people get born in the MU despite totally different circumstances. It possibly suggests some kind of space-time-thought connection, if you are looking for an in universe explanation besides coincidence.

    If we want to really recruit the traveler spacetimethought physics to explain it. Maybe the MU was created when humans started suppressing all their dark impulses. That’s where they went. They created a universe with their subconscious thoughts the same way Beverly created the warp bubble.

    Maybe Zefram Cochrane unknowingly created it during his warp experiments. He created a warp bubble by accident, with an imprint of everyone’s thoughts in the aftermath of WW3. But it was more stable than Wesley’s because it had a telepathic bonding with every human which transferred everybody’s suppressed thoughts to their duplicate.

    Over time the fewer and fewer people had bound duplicates, the less and less coupled it was with our universe, the farther it drifted away and the more freedom it had to form its own thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  12. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The absurdly close similarities in the "mirror" universe heavily suggest an artificially constructed timeline, or at least one that is being constantly tinkered with the bring it closer to the "prime" universe.
    Given the number of super-powerful non-corporeal beings encountered across the various series, the MU could simply be the equivalent of some child's school project.
     
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  13. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Looking for an explanation for why the Mirror Universe keeps paralleling the Prime Universe is like looking for an explanation of why there's sound in outer space and why music plays from out of nowhere during dramatic scenes or why time passes without us seeing it between episodes. At a certain point, you just have to accept the conceits of a work of fiction.
     
  14. Shawnster

    Shawnster Commodore Commodore

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    All the evidence together leads to the conclusion the Mirror Universe is a natural occurrence and there are some fundamental differences between the MU and the Prime Universe. Lorca had to take injections because the Prime Universe was to bright from a luminosity standpoint and it strained his eyes and gave headaches (which, somehow, Georgiou and all the others from the MU were never bothered by it). The opening credits of the ENT MU episodes indicate that the differences in history extend back much further than 20th century Earth. The implication is that the very nature of humanity in the MU is different than in the Prime Universe.

    Everything points to a fundamental difference other than a simple divergent timeline.
     
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  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Do we?

    I blame Trelane. :p
     
  16. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One of Shatner's novels had the killer reveal that it was OUR universe that had been tinkered with in some great experiment and the Mirror Universe was the control one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So, Lorca had a more adverse reaction than others different illnesses or conditions affect humans differently. It's not that much of a stretch.
     
  18. Dryson

    Dryson Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The implication is that the very nature of humanity in the MU is different than in the Prime Universe.

    Could the Whale Probe actually have been a probe sent to Earth to investigate a temporal anomaly that the extinction of the whales was used as a front for?

    Perhaps the energy siphon the probe used was to ensure the temporal occurrence on Earth was destroyed entirely.

    An occurrence that might have taken place while Kirk and crew were away on their whaling trip. It's odd that the Whale Probe would show up at Earth only after the Discovery travelled into the future as well as showing up after Kirk and the Enterprise first encountered the Guardian of Tomorrow and the Terran Mirror.

    Something is telling me that Whale Probe involved ulterior motives other than destroying Earth just because the Humpbacks had gone extinct.

    If you, being the Whale Probe, lost contact with the humps on Earth, why not just bring more whale young to re-populate the species with?

    Or did the Whale Probe bring something to Earth,from the 32nd century to try and stop Burnham, but arrived to late to do so?

    Maybe the Whale Probe was sent to off Spock to sever a connection between Spock and Burnham?

    Spock did mind meld with George.
     
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    How so? In the original Mirror, Mirror story Spock remarks that the counterparts he observed were "the very flower of humanity." Now, I always took that as the base human nature was the same, but what was emphasized was different from the Federation. While the Federation humanity had focused on cooperation, mutual support and positive social relationships, the MU was far more aggressive, seeking power and personal domination where they could. Both are facets of humanity that can be easily recognized in today's humans, so I don't see how the very nature of humanity is different, vs. what was emphasized in their societies.
     
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  20. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    DIS has had lines that have implied there's some sort of biological predisposition towards violence and anti-social behavior, especially from Kovich in his scenes about Phillipa and in S1 where they had lines about Terrans preferring the dark.

    I just ignore those lines because they're nonsense and because making the Terrans "naturally evil" both goes against the point of the concept (that your environment can change you) and undermines the idea from DS9 that the Terrans could build a better society after liberating themselves from the Alliance.