MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"

[Arvis Taljik]

I interpreted their post as they shouldn’t show LGBT+ issues as still being an issue in the future. I.E. no one in the federation should be shown as a bigot towards LGBT+

Not that they shouldn’t show LGBT+ relationships or people. No where in their post did they say that.

Exactly this ^

My point is counter to the "Trek needs to tackle modern issues of our day" when in fact "These things aren't an issue in Trek, and certainly not an issue a thousand years in the future."

(Seems someone also didn't see where I said I was gay, but oh well lol)

I have NO problem having LGBTQIA relationships in Trek. ZERO WHATSOEVER!!!
I have a problem with them being future issues that are still being dealt with. That should absolutely NOT be the case.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Apologies to @Arvis Taljik then. We had someone around not too long ago who was -- nah, let's not get into it -- but I thought you were someone else going under another username. So, again, sorry about that.

I instantly thought of the same guy when I saw the "I'm gay" bit.

But he always used the cliche political words like his personal favorite "shoehorn"

On response to the post above I think DIS has done a good job of just having gay characters without any silly coming out episodes or whatever. Questions over Adiras gender was done well.
"I prefer they"
"ok no problem"
scene over

 

[Tuskin38]

(Seems someone also didn't see where I said I was gay, but oh well lol)

As implied above, we had someone on here before who said they were gay not liking all the LGBT+ stuff being 'shoved in our faces'.

So that's where it came from.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

As implied above, we had someone on here before who said they were gay not liking all the LGBT+ stuff being 'shoved in our faces'.
So that's where it came from.

Ya that guy was nuts

 

[Tuskin38]

On the topic of Wiki's, I always liked the Transformers wiki (tfwiki.net), it's not 100% serious, there's jokes, but it still gets the important information across where it's needed.

 

[Sci]

I'm trying to see the logic in dismissing some well-intentioned scenes as huge steps backwards, while praising others as really great that went just as far or were just as small and vague. That makes little sense to me.

It makes sense if you consider that sometimes biases and prejudices still get in the way of good intentions. "The Host" may not have been made with any harmful intent, but the unquestioned biases of the writers -- the assumption that everyone is cisgender, the assumption that heterosexuality is the "default setting," the assumption that the gender binary is the "default" settings, the assumption that most humans cannot accept partners who assume new gender identities -- cause harm. "The Outcast" was made with good intent towards gays and lesbians, but the assumptions of its writers that people naturally belong to one side or other of the gender binary, the way the writers equate the aliens' non-male-and-non-female gender identity (I don't want to call it a nonbinary gender identity because I'm not sure that this depiction of a supposedly "genderless" race by cishet writers is applicable to the real-world nonbinary community) with an oppressive social structure, and the writers' lack of consideration for the existence of trans and nonbinary people, causes the episode to come across as being transphobic and enbyphobic today.

You praise one breadcrumb and condemn the others, that's why I logically ask you about that.

Sometimes bread crumbs are edible. Sometimes bread crumbs have mold on them.

Edited for clarity and to avoid unintended potential transphobic/enbyphobic connotations of original wording.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ya that guy was nuts

Its not unreasonable to not want to see insulting LGBT representation, because it is thoughtless, painful or inaccurate.

Did all the 70s gay men in the world feel "up" about John Ritter pretending to be a character, pretending to be gay, so he could get to live in a cheap apartment and hit on the two girls living with him. Did he ever date Janet? Even as a child, I couldn't find "Chrissy" attractive because she had a diced pineapple for a brain.

More recently, consider Transparent.

As it happened, it seemed ground breaking.

Wait, isn't the Transparent a straight cis dude?

And then at nearly the end.. Oh no... The straight cis dude from Transparent just got me too-ed because he is a woman hating mysoginist... Oops.

They recast his part with a trans actor for the movie.

Since the "character" was dead, and it was a dream.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Its not unreasonable to not want to see insulting LGBT representation, because it is thoughtless, painful or inaccurate.

Did all the 70s gay men in the world feel "up" about John Ritter pretending to be a character, pretending to be gay, so he could get to live in a cheap apartment and hit on the two girls living with him. Did he ever date Janet? Even as a child, I couldn't find "Chrissy" attractive because she had a diced pineapple for a brain.

More recently, consider Transparent.

As it happened, it seemed ground breaking.

Wait, isn't the Transparent a straight cis dude?

And then at nearly the end.. Oh no... The straight cis dude from Transparent just got me too-ed because he is a woman hating mysoginist... Oops.

They recast his part with a trans actor for the movie.

Since the "character" was dead, and it was a dream.

I have no idea what any of that means or what those shows youre talking about are.
The guy I was talking about was actually called nuts it was just a joke.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

"The Outcast" was made with good intent towards gays and lesbians, but the assumptions of its writers that people naturally belong to one side or other of the gender binary, the way the writers equate the aliens' non-male-and-non-female gender identity (I don't want to call it a nonbinary gender identity because I'm not sure that this depiction of a supposedly "genderless" race by cishet writers is applicable to the real-world nonbinary community) with an oppressive social structure, and the writers' lack of consideration for the existence of trans and nonbinary people, causes the episode to come across as being transphobic and enbyphobic today.

What is it about outcast that is offensive. Was it that the crew were surprised by the genderless people or something about their depiction ?

 

[DonIago]

Quoting from KRAD's review (https://www.tor.com/2012/08/03/star-trek-the-next-generation-qthe-outcastq/):
"Everything about this episode that’s supposed to challenge gender stereotypes instead just reinforces them, from Soren’s talk with Crusher to Worf’s macho idiocy. In addition, as with “Code of Honor,” a casting decision makes the script come across worse than it actually is: all the J’Naii are played by women with awful haircuts. Jonathan Frakes is on record as saying the episode would have been much stronger if Soren was played by a male actor—indeed, it’s impossible to think of Soren as anything other than female, the way Culea plays the character—and he’s absolutely right.

Hell, even the opening captain’s log is problematic. Yes, the purpose of those logs is more to provide the viewer with exposition than to actually be a true captain’s log, but dammit, identifying them as “an androgynous race” in the log? He never would say, “We’ve taken on a delegation of Vulcans, a pointy-eared species,” so why’s he pointing it out here?"

I recommend reading the full review and otherwise Googling for more.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Quoting from KRAD's review (https://www.tor.com/2012/08/03/star-trek-the-next-generation-qthe-outcastq/):
"Everything about this episode that’s supposed to challenge gender stereotypes instead just reinforces them, from Soren’s talk with Crusher to Worf’s macho idiocy. In addition, as with “Code of Honor,” a casting decision makes the script come across worse than it actually is: all the J’Naii are played by women with awful haircuts. Jonathan Frakes is on record as saying the episode would have been much stronger if Soren was played by a male actor—indeed, it’s impossible to think of Soren as anything other than female, the way Culea plays the character—and he’s absolutely right.

Hell, even the opening captain’s log is problematic. Yes, the purpose of those logs is more to provide the viewer with exposition than to actually be a true captain’s log, but dammit, identifying them as “an androgynous race” in the log? He never would say, “We’ve taken on a delegation of Vulcans, a pointy-eared species,” so why’s he pointing it out here?"

I recommend reading the full review and otherwise Googling for more.

This is Starfleet, who felt compelled to identify Spock as a "Half Vulcan Science Officer".

 

[Guy Gardener]

I have no idea what any of that means or what those shows youre talking about are.
The guy I was talking about was actually called nuts it was just a joke.

You've never heard of Three's Company?

40 years ago it was the biggest show in America, and then they reran the shit out of it for 20 years before it before the fashion became intolerable.

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Transparent is a little more niche, and recent. It's about a parent who is trans, and their adult children. No great loss missing this one.

Such a dad joke.

 

[The Wormhole]

The Outcast sure makes the Enterprise crew look unbelievably ignorant, or shows just how unimaginative the TNG writers were in thinking up aliens. Everyone makes a big deal about the fact the J'Naii are a single gender race as though that's a truly unique concept. Really, though, there should be plenty of aliens races out there that are either single gendered or have many more than two genders. If you incorporate material from the novels, the Andorians, a founding member of the Federation have four.

And it never sat right with me how they suddenly decided to turn Worf into a bigot in this episode with him declaring for no reason at all that a relationship with a human and a J'Naii is wrong. And before anyone gets started, I know Worf has always been bigoted towards Romulans, but that's slightly different, as that's related to his personal history with them. He'd never otherwise been known to hate a race just because it's different.

 

[DonIago]

It would almost be more interesting if it was someone else expressing that sentiment. Having the Klingon do it kind of just enforces anti-Klingon bias at the same time.

 

[Tim Thomason]

The Outcast sure makes the Enterprise crew look unbelievably ignorant, or shows just how unimaginative the TNG writers were in thinking up aliens. Everyone makes a big deal about the fact the J'Naii are a single gender race as though that's a truly unique concept. Really, though, there should be plenty of aliens races out there that are either single gendered or have many more than two genders. If you incorporate material from the novels, the Andorians, a founding member of the Federation have four.

And it never sat right with me how they suddenly decided to turn Worf into a bigot in this episode with him declaring for no reason at all that a relationship with a human and a J'Naii is wrong. And before anyone gets started, I know Worf has always been bigoted towards Romulans, but that's slightly different, as that's related to his personal history with them. He'd never otherwise been known to hate a race just because it's different.

Worf specifically said it was "impossible," but then clammed up and changed the subject. There's an underlying bigotry with his reaction (especially following his admittance that he was personally bothered, or perhaps skeeved out, by the J'naii's monogender monoculture), but I think he realized it was an incorrect knee jerk reaction and rightfully would reflect on it later. He believed that all J'naii were the same (which was why they bothered him), and then was immediately confronted with evidence that one J'naii (through her infatuation with Commander Riker) was not the same as the others, meaning that his unconscious bigotry was completely misplaced, and perhaps exposed him to the fact that he had just displayed some disturbing racist attitudes.

It was a good, short scene. Worf was constantly confronted with his sexist and racist ideas, inspired by his Klingon culture idolization, and as a character he seems to grow and accept these challenges to his worldview. Completely enlightened and uplifted characters are great, but actually seeing a character get enlightened, especially in such a subtle and almost happenstance way, is even better.

 

[Lord Garth]

My take on "The Outcast" immediately after re-watching it on December 9th, 2019.

Cutting and Pasting...

"The Outcast" is underrated until the last five minutes. The last five minutes deserve all the panning it gets as a cop-out ending.

I would've only changed one thing but it would've made all the difference to me. I think Soren should've fought harder at the hearing. Especially when it was ruled that she had to be "corrected" to become "normal" again. I would've had her scream at the top of her lungs at the end, impassioned, and then when they try to take her away, it would become physical and she'd struggle as she's hauled away. Then she's "cured" (it repels me to type that sentence), off-camera, as happened in the episode and you still get the same result at the end of the episode. The only difference is, Soren would've put up more of a fight. She would've fought it up right up to the end.

Her being "cured" should feel as horrible as what happened to Jack Nicholson's RP McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest after Nurse Ratched was done with him. Who RP was was gone. Who Soren was would've been gone. Even though Soren, unlike RP, would still have her mental facilities intact, it would feel just as bad. She wouldn't be who she was anymore and she'd be an unquestioning sheep following the rules of society instead of fighting against them. I think the ending shouldn't be tragic so much as horrific.

The thought of me being changed into something I'm not and would've fought my entire life against would be a true horror. It would be someone's worst nightmare. It's a direct assault on someone's personhood. On Soren's womanhood. So that's why I think there should've been more resistance on Soren's end at the end of the hearing.

I think the rest of the episode leading up to it was pretty good, especially considering that it came out in 1992. So it really is just that one thing I would've changed.

 

[Sci]

"The Outcast" was made with good intent towards gays and lesbians, but the assumptions of its writers that people naturally belong to one side or other of the gender binary, the way the writers equate the aliens' non-male-and-non-female gender identity (I don't want to call it a nonbinary gender identity because I'm not sure that this depiction of a supposedly "genderless" race by cishet writers is applicable to the real-world nonbinary community) with an oppressive social structure, and the writers' lack of consideration for the existence of trans and nonbinary people, causes the episode to come across as being transphobic and enbyphobic today.

What is it about outcast that is offensive. Was it that the crew were surprised by the genderless people or something about their depiction ?

I literally explained what was wrong with "The Outcast" in the very part of my post which you quoted.

When you ask someone to explain why something was bad after they have already explained why something was bad, it creates the impression that you either: 1) have no reading comprehension, or 2) that you are being deliberately obtuse in order to troll advocates of equality for transgender and nonbinary people.

 

[Awesome Possum]

My take on "The Outcast" immediately after re-watching it on December 9th, 2019.

Cutting and Pasting...

"The Outcast" is underrated until the last five minutes. The last five minutes deserve all the panning it gets as a cop-out ending.

I would've only changed one thing but it would've made all the difference to me. I think Soren should've fought harder at the hearing. Especially when it was ruled that she had to be "corrected" to become "normal" again. I would've had her scream at the top of her lungs at the end, impassioned, and then when they try to take her away, it would become physical and she'd struggle as she's hauled away. Then she's "cured" (it repels me to type that sentence), off-camera, as happened in the episode and you still get the same result at the end of the episode. The only difference is, Soren would've put up more of a fight. She would've fought it up right up to the end.

Her being "cured" should feel as horrible as what happened to Jack Nicholson's RP McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest after Nurse Ratched was done with him. Who RP was was gone. Who Soren was would've been gone. Even though Soren, unlike RP, would still have her mental facilities intact, it would feel just as bad. She wouldn't be who she was anymore and she'd be an unquestioning sheep following the rules of society instead of fighting against them. I think the ending shouldn't be tragic so much as horrific.

The thought of me being changed into something I'm not and would've fought my entire life against would be a true horror. It would be someone's worst nightmare. It's a direct assault on someone's personhood. On Soren's womanhood. So that's why I think there should've been more resistance on Soren's end at the end of the hearing.

I think the rest of the episode leading up to it was pretty good, especially considering that it came out in 1992. So it really is just that one thing I would've changed.

The ending is one of the more horrific things shown on Trek. Having the lone LGBTQ character end up "cured" in a conversation therapy that works really makes it one of the single worst attempt at doing an "issues" episode. It's probably done more damage to the LGBTQ fans than we can ever know. All it does is show us that we'd either need to hide who were or end up suffering a terrible fate.

 

[Arvis Taljik]

The ending is one of the more horrific things shown on Trek. Having the lone LGBTQ character end up "cured" in a conversation therapy that works really makes it one of the single worst attempt at doing an "issues" episode. It's probably done more damage to the LGBTQ fans than we can ever know. All it does is show us that we'd either need to hide who were or end up suffering a terrible fate.

I think the ending was more intended to show that "this is something that happens and this is wrong," at least that's how I take it.

 

[Sci]

I think the ending was more intended to show that "this is something that happens and this is wrong," at least that's how I take it.

Again, how something is intended is not necessarily the same thing as the effect it actually has on someone.