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MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"

All: this thread is about Memory Alpha's refusal to include Adira's correct gender on their page. Let's try to keep it on track.

I'm sick of having to close every thread in this forum which touches on gender issues because of the bigoted moths which flock to the flame. I will be handing out reply bans for any further trolling of this nature. Dryson, you have one to start off with.
 
mdtauk said:
I was making the broader point, as that is what this whole forum post was about, not directing it to you - as part of the discussion you say we should have, over insults and calling out people.


Unwanted sexual attraction or attention is a problem for many. You call it out as male sexual attraction, but there are cases on both sides. Wolf whistling is one of the clearest manifestations of it. People being touched inappropriately on public transport. People receiving direct messages, or text messages commenting on the person's appearance without a request for such comments or opinions.

An example of a woman who gives a lecture on science or technology, having to go through responses or messages talking about how attractive they are, without any engagement in what was discussed.

These are unwanted, demeaning, and happen all the time are what is meant by objectification. And plays a big part in the inequalities that exist in the workplace, and in society.
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That's called sexual harassment, not objectification. And it has nothing to do with scantily-clad women or men, which is the topic under discussion.

EDIT: I made this post before I refreshed this page and saw cultcross's reply.
 
Extrocomp said:
That's called sexual harassment, not objectification. And it has nothing to do with scantily-clad women or men, which is the topic under discussion.

EDIT: I made this post before I refreshed this page and saw cultcross's reply.
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It was a response to your claim "objectification" doesn't exist. But my previous comments about Orion representation in the series, was directed to your "scantily-clad women or men" and censorship points.

But this thread is about Adira's Gender representation, and why it matters to everyone, especially those who are Trans or Non-Binary, and other minority groups like the LGBT+ community. All be it via the discussion of why we should all be willing to listen to groups affected by things, others may not experience themselves (but still opine on)
 
mdtauk said:
But this thread is about Adira's Gender representation, and why it matters to everyone
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Indeed, and on that topic, why does Adira's gender being correct on a fan website matter to me? Because it is exactly this kind of double standard, thinly veiled bigotry, nonsense which makes life so difficult for people who don't fit the "norm". How many people in Trek history have explained, or even referenced their gender identity on screen? There have been some, certainly, but what? A dozen? Twenty? As many as fifty? And yet, for all the rest, all of the characters who have come and gone over 800 productions, Memory Alpha happily assigns a 'male' or 'female' tag without requiring a canon source for that information. Along comes a new character, Adira, and in one of their early episodes we have a conversation where they explicitly explain their gender identity. So, one presumes, the conversation is over - there's a canon source, update the page, and move on.

But no. That's too ambiguous all of a sudden. Not enough, not even with the out of universe back up of the producers. What about assuming (as done with most other characters) that the actor's gender is the character's gender? Nope, that's not enough either. Perhaps we could cite precedent from The Outcast - They happily used 'female' there because the character identified as such despite explicitly stating they didn't have distinction by genitals or reproductive roles. But no, that's not enough either. A human character who is non binary is just too big a step for an Encyclopedia about a future of aliens and magic tech to just describe correctly. We have to start a whole conversation about "what is gender?!" that apparently wasn't needed before when we just had ordinary everyday blue/pink aliens with genitals on their knees (referred to as male on MA).

In fact, Memory Alpha would rather hide the gender of every other one of its thousand odd characters than update this one character profile correctly.

And then get upset when people suggest that there might be some prejudice involved.
 
cultcross said:
Indeed, and on that topic, why does Adira's gender being correct on a fan website matter to me? Because it is exactly this kind of double standard, thinly veiled bigotry, nonsense which makes life so difficult for people who don't fit the "norm". How many people in Trek history have explained, or even referenced their gender identity on screen? There have been some, certainly, but what? A dozen? Twenty? As many as fifty? And yet, for all the rest, all of the characters who have come and gone over 800 productions, Memory Alpha happily assigns a 'male' or 'female' tag without requiring a canon source for that information. Along comes a new character, Adira, and in one of her early episodes we have a conversation where they explicitly explain their gender identity. So, one presumes, the conversation is over - there's a canon source, update the page, and move on.

But no. That's too ambiguous all of a sudden. Not enough, not even with the out of universe back up of the producers. What about assuming (as done with most other characters) that the actor's gender is the character's gender? Nope, that's not enough either. Perhaps we could cite precedent from The Outcast - They happily used 'female' there because the character identified as such despite explicitly stating they didn't have distinction by genitals or reproductive roles. But no, that's not enough either. A human character who is non binary is just too big a step for an Encyclopedia about a future of aliens and magic tech to just describe correctly. We have to start a whole conversation about "what is gender?!" that apparently wasn't needed before when we just had ordinary everyday blue/pink aliens with genitals on their knees (referred to as male on MA).

In fact, Memory Alpha would rather hide the gender of every other one of its thousand odd characters than update this one character profile correctly.

And then get upset when people suggest that there might be some prejudice involved.
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their*. But this is exactly on point these mods don't care abt trying be clean with canon info, they just don't want a nonbinary character.
 
Extrocomp said:
The term SJW is used somewhat ironically. SJWs don't actually care about social justice, or at least they have a very twisted view of what social justice means and how it should be implemented. By viewing everyone in terms of their race, they are only contributing to racism, not fighting it. And by attacking straight white men, they are encouraging white supremacy by proving the white supremacists right when they say the white race is under attack. SJWs are also quick to turn against the women/minorities they are supposed to be protecting if those minorities disagree with them in any way.
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I think you mean sarcastically, not ironically. Although it is a little ironic that you're making sweeping generalizations of people for making sweeping generalizations of people.
 
Memory Alpha has been showing Adira's gender as non binary for several hours now. Have cooler heads prevailed, or is it a brief cessation of hostilities?
 
Awesome Possum said:
From what I’ve read when the actors who play Adira and Gray first came on set the two of them took them under their wings due to their age and this being their first major roles. I think that shows through in the performances with Stamets just immediately going into dad mode with Adira to the point where he was mad at Gray for not appearing because of how much it bothered Adira.
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Aye! It’s been a lovely story. Seeing that reflected by reality is amazing. <3
 
The entry shows as "Non-binary" as of just a moment before I typed this posting. So far, so good. Hoping that holds, and the precedent remains in place.
 
On the positive side: it is heartening to see that here at least, aside from a few malignant gobshite dissenters, the overwhelming reaction has been against bigotry and in support of trans people and their right to be seen, the same as everyone else.

This fandom isn't rotten. It is however like many quarters in this day and age beset by a subset of malicious bad actors and I think it's past time the rest of us stopped allowing them the benefit of the doubt. One should not feel obligated to tolerate the intolerant.
 
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Why is it so hard to respect people? I mean I'm not totally sold on the whole "non-binary" stuff, but does it do any harm to anyone? I don't think it does and it doesn't harm me or annoy me to respect people who feel that way.
 
Reverend said:
On the positive side: it is heartening to see that here at least, aside from a few malignant gobshite dissenters, the overwhelming reaction has been against bigotry and in support of trans people and their right to be seen, the same as everyone else.

This fandom isn't rotten. It is however like many quarters in this day and age beset by a subset of malicious bad actors and I think it's past time the rest of us stopped allowing them the benefit of the doubt. One should not feel obligated to tolerate the intolerant.
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Indeed, on a majority Trek fandom is largely populated by decent people who really do believe in the ideals the franchise espouses about diversity and acceptance. The concerning part in all this is, in many ways Memory Alpha is a sort of "ambassador" representing Trek fandom. For example, a casual fan or even a new fan wanting to learn more about Star Trek and its universe is going to eventually make their way to MA for their Trek education, and indeed, it becomes very possible that it could even be used as a resource by those working in an official capacity. I remember Simon Pegg plugging MA in interviews talking about how he used it as a point of reference while writing Beyond. It therefore becomes very frustrating when a site that is basically representing Trek fandom to the outside world is engaging in outright bigotry and trying to use a so-called "rule of the franchise" to legitimize it. Never mind that most fans don't adhere so strictly to canon they aren't going to call a spade a spade just because it was not canonically stated on screen to be a spade.

Our very own ambassadors are basically doing us a colossal injustice by representing themselves and by extension us as idiots and bigots.
 
Extrocomp said:
I don't think it's transphobic to accept the fact that biological sex is real or to think that biological sex should be noted in a character's infobox. People have a variety of opinions on the subject, but when you call someone transphobic and they know they aren't, they'll just think you're a crazy SJW and stop listening to anything you have to say.


To Court Vince and any other non-binary people on this thread, I invite you to participate in the discussion at Talk:Adira Tal. If listing Adira's biological sex distresses you, please explain why. We've had lots of comments from allies, but I don't think we've had one from an actual non-binary person yet (yes, I know now that some of them posted on twitter, I'm referring to the actual discussion page).
I go by the username NetSpiker on Memory Alpha.

By the way, I did try to get Archduk3 removed as an admin for reasons that had nothing to do with the current issue. You can read about it here.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: there's nothing wrong with an image of a woman in a bikini. It doesn't hurt women any more than an image of a shirtless man would hurt men. It's called sexual attraction, not sexual objectification and it's a natural process that leads to the propagation of the human species. As a heterosexual male, it makes me very angry when people like you vilify my sexual orientation by trying to push for censorship of sexy images with this "objectification" nonsense.
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Amazing. Every single thing you just said was wrong.
 
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