Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x07 - "Unification III"

[137th Gebirg]

Incompetent people are often supported by more competent people who know better but put their own whims first.

Been there, done that. Gets to be a horrible drag after doing it for a couple of decades in one's chosen profession. It is because of this that I am a horrible mentor. We must all recognize our weaknesses, and that one is mine.

I prefer the Steve Jobs Model these days: "A-plus players like to work together, and they don’t like it if you tolerate B-grade work." Sure, you always need those other folks who aren't top performers, but their needs shouldn't be constantly pandered to at the sacrifice of the goal. That is unbalanced and generally bad leadership. A fleet only moves as fast as its slowest ship and when unreasonable deadlines are the norm, sometimes you need to leave that one creaky old dingy behind.

It's callous and not very compassionate, I admit, but fuck it. It's either that or constantly suffer abject failure, and that doesn't really satisfy me as a rule this late in my game anymore.

 

[Turtletrekker]

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[Nerys Myk]

Maybe Romulans are Orthodox Jews.

I wonder where the TNG Ferengi fit into all this.

They're not Vulcanoids so they don't.
The Ferengi are a separate issue in Jewish stereotyping.

 

[AresB]

Apparently, Admiral Vance and his predecessors completely disagree with you.

Indeed.
It probably took time after the Burn for Starfleet to get organized again. it's likely they sent some ships to examine the wrecks, only to find that scavengers had salvaged their black boxes along with everything else. Those scavengers wouldn't deal with the Feds and vice versa. Also, they thought they knew what caused the event in the first place, so recovering the black boxes wasn't a top priority with everything else going on. Until a free agent appeared, who was willing to burn the time and dilithium in the search.

 

[DaveyNY]

Indeed.
It probably took time after the Burn for Starfleet to get organized again. it's likely they sent some ships to examine the wrecks, only to find that scavengers had salvaged their black boxes along with everything else. Those scavengers wouldn't deal with the Feds and vice versa. Also, they thought they knew what caused the event in the first place, so recovering the black boxes wasn't a top priority with everything else going on. Until a free agent appeared, who was willing to burn the time and dilithium in the search.

...and also didn't know till recently what the Vulcan's assumed.

 

[Noname Given]

No it hasn't.

Insurrection was 2 hours long and I know way more about Lily than I do about Detmer, Owo or high-five guys.

Pretty interesting statement since 'Lily' was in Star Trek: First Contact, not Star Trek: Insurection, ergo, IDK what I can take what you say seriously if the rest of your memory is similar.

Oh, and as for what you know of Lily, beyond the fact she was a scrounger or salvage, helped build the Phoenix cockpit, and maybe? assisted Cochrane with some other aspects.

- Where was she born? (never stated)
- Where did she live prior to WWIII? (never stated)
- Was she military or civilian during the way? (never stated)

Again what personal facts were stated RE: Lily in those two hours that gave you such a wealth of background info on her?

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Pretty interesting statement since 'Lily' was in Star Trek: First Contact, not Star Trek: Insurection, ergo, IDK what I can take what you say seriously if the rest of your memory is similar.

Oh, and as for what you know of Lily, beyond the fact she was a scrounger or salvage, helped build the Phoenix cockpit, and maybe? assisted Cochrane with some other aspects.

- Where was she born? (never stated)
- Where did she live prior to WWIII? (never stated)
- Was she military or civilian during the way? (never stated)

Again what personal facts were stated RE: Lily in those two hours that gave you such a wealth of background info on her?

Ha ya I was originally gonna say someone from Insurrection and changed my mind.
The things you list like where she is from or was she military are tiny things really that can be quickly blurted out or read off her Memory Alpha page or a companion book. To develop a character is to learn about their personality and uncover why a person does what they do and how they act and should be a guide to future decisions. We do get a bit in Discovery early on with Stamets and Saru but it's so intermittent and gets forgotten by writers easily

 

[XCV330]

Pretty interesting statement since 'Lily' was in Star Trek: First Contact, not Star Trek: Insurection, ergo, IDK what I can take what you say seriously if the rest of your memory is similar.

Oh, and as for what you know of Lily, beyond the fact she was a scrounger or salvage, helped build the Phoenix cockpit, and maybe? assisted Cochrane with some other aspects.

- Where was she born? (never stated)
- Where did she live prior to WWIII? (never stated)
- Was she military or civilian during the way? (never stated)

Again what personal facts were stated RE: Lily in those two hours that gave you such a wealth of background info on her?

Lily Sloan is one of my favorite characters in Star Trek. I'd love a Short Trek on her, though I know it won't happen.

If Cochrane is the pulp-magazine mad scientist, Sloan is the guerilla engineer. She knew far more about the future even than Cochrane, and so probably had to take a backseat to history by necessity. I've also thought she might have been the impetus for Starfleet forming so early and being armed from the start, despite the big-helping-hand of Vulcan nearby.

 

[SJGardner]

No it hasn't.

Insurrection was 2 hours long and I know way more about Lily than I do about Detmer, Owo or high-five guys.

But that is a false equivalence. Lily from First Contact and Anij from Insurrection were not supporting or background cast. They were guest stars of those movies, with Anij actually being Picard's love interest. Detmer, Owo and the others aren't even the equivalents of Sulu or Chekov from TOS' supporting cast. They fill in the same niches as Joe Carey, Ayala, or Quark's plethora of named employees.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But that is a false equivalence. Lily from First Contact and Anij from Insurrection were not supporting or background cast. They were guest stars of those movies, with Anij actually being Picard's love interest. Detmer, Owo and the others aren't even the equivalents of Sulu or Chekov from TOS' supporting cast. They fill in the same niches as Joe Carey, Ayala, or Quark's plethora of named employees.

Are you saying Broik didn't deserve a backstory?

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

But that is a false equivalence. Lily from First Contact and Anij from Insurrection were not supporting or background cast. They were guest stars of those movies, with Anij actually being Picard's love interest. Detmer, Owo and the others aren't even the equivalents of Sulu or Chekov from TOS' supporting cast. They fill in the same niches as Joe Carey, Ayala, or Quark's plethora of named employees.

You are right. Its not that they are trying and failing to write them some personality but that they don't go down that road that I should be annoyed with

 

[Nerys Myk]

Pretty interesting statement since 'Lily' was in Star Trek: First Contact, not Star Trek: Insurection, ergo, IDK what I can take what you say seriously if the rest of your memory is similar.

Oh, and as for what you know of Lily, beyond the fact she was a scrounger or salvage, helped build the Phoenix cockpit, and maybe? assisted Cochrane with some other aspects.

- Where was she born? (never stated)
- Where did she live prior to WWIII? (never stated)
- Was she military or civilian during the way? (never stated)

Again what personal facts were stated RE: Lily in those two hours that gave you such a wealth of background info on her?

Yeah, what was her job? Scientist? Engineer? Zef's PA? An administrator? Someone who wandered on to project after the war? The founder of Section 31?
She's in the film to play off Picard and put him in his place.

 

[Yistaan]

Coming from Star Wars, I find that a lot of the criticism of Burnham and Tilly could easily apply to Ahsoka Tano or Ezra Bridger. Don't read if you don't want Star Wars spoilers.

Spoiler

Ahsoka is promoted to take down Darth Maul of all people despite never having even finished padawan training. She runs around openly doing Jedi things in the Mandalorian without even a mention of Luke Skywalker. Luke's importance is diminished severely because Ahsoka was running around during the original movies and apparently helping Luke out was beneath her time (as far as we know so far).

Ezra Bridger is another hope that's overly important and overshadowed the leadup to Luke in Rebels.

People complaining that Burnham's overshadowing Spock's legacy to the point she's credited with helping him be who he is in this episode have it easy compared to what LFL has done to Luke Skywalker in recent years.

 

[donners22]

Detmer, Owo and the others aren't even the equivalents of Sulu or Chekov from TOS' supporting cast. They fill in the same niches as Joe Carey, Ayala, or Quark's plethora of named employees.

Carey's a good example - like Airiam, he only got a backstory just to add weight to being killed off. It was done much better in Airiam's case, though.

 

[Lord Garth]

Metallica said it best. Kill 'Em All!

 

[donners22]

The more I think about this episode, the less I like it.

I was happy to have Burnham actually have a reasonable basis for being the central figure in a dilemma (as opposed to Culber twice nonsensically deferring to her), yet somehow it turned into her and her mother exploring her personality and background in a room full of people. It was bizarre; the only thing which would have salvaged it is if Linus transported into the middle.

Add in Beyer's continued clumsy fanfic writing and the episode really grated. I imagine it would be even worse for more casual/newer fans - my partner is in that category (loves Disco and Picard, tolerates the rest at best) and she found this episode mind-numbingly bad.

 

[flandry84]

/\Never thought of that analogy before but Tilly’s elevation is the stuff of fanfic and bad fanfic at that.
I was really a fan of this show and defended it to a few of my less enthusiastic friends but lately...I dunno.

I’m really glad that they changed the planet designation...these guys don’t deserve the name of Vulcan anymore.

 

[DEWLine]

So...we're agreed. Mr. Sahil deserves some support, some debriefing, some counselling, and maybe even vacation time at long last. Right?

 

[Yistaan]

/\Never thought of that analogy before but Tilly’s elevation is the stuff of fanfic and bad fanfic at that.
I was really a fan of this show and defended it to a few of my less enthusiastic friends but lately...I dunno.

I’m really glad that they changed the planet designation...these guys don’t deserve the name of Vulcan anymore.

This started way back in 2009 with Cadet to Captain Kirk. It was bad then, it's bad now with Tilly.

This is basically the slippery slope you hear about so much. The producers realized they could get away with Cadet to Captain (the movie was a financial hit, even Nimoy liked it, etc.) and the complaints about cadet to captain Kirk were drowned out.

Audiences financially rewarded the producers' poor storytelling. Why is anyone surprised they'll repeat it with Tilly?

So...we're agreed. Mr. Sahil deserves some support, some debriefing, some counselling, and maybe even vacation time at long last. Right?

Vance's first act on the traumatized Discovery crew was to try to forcibly break them all up, destroying the only sense of familiarity that crew had left. What makes you think he cares at all about Sahil?

Saru: Admiral, I wanted to talk to you about retrieving Mr. Sahil, the agent manning the Federation outpost in sector...

Vance: Is Mr. Sahil under attack?

Saru: Well no, but--

Vance: Is he starving, without clothes, without a roof?

Saru: No to all...

Vance: We have more important things to do.

Saru: ...

 

[fireproof78]

Coming from Star Wars, I find that a lot of the criticism of Burnham and Tilly could easily apply to Ahsoka Tano or Ezra Bridger. Don't read if you don't want Star Wars spoilers.

Spoiler

Ahsoka is promoted to take down Darth Maul of all people despite never having even finished padawan training. She runs around openly doing Jedi things in the Mandalorian without even a mention of Luke Skywalker. Luke's importance is diminished severely because Ahsoka was running around during the original movies and apparently helping Luke out was beneath her time (as far as we know so far).

Ezra Bridger is another hope that's overly important and overshadowed the leadup to Luke in Rebels.

People complaining that Burnham's overshadowing Spock's legacy to the point she's credited with helping him be who he is in this episode have it easy compared to what LFL has done to Luke Skywalker in recent years.

Meh. All either of these characters did was be heroes and protagonists while contradicting assumptions made by fans.