Justice League official "Zack Snyder" cut on HBO Max

[DigificWriter]

I unabashedly and unashamedly love the entire DCEU, including the Theatrical Cut of Justice League, but would still be 'pleased as punch' if the 'Snyder Cut' of JL were to be declared or otherwise accepted as being the 'definitive' version of the story because everything we've seen from it thus far indicates that it is going to be as fun as, if not more so than, the Theatrical Cut.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

No, they aren't. Every other movie and tv show Whedon has ever made was vastly superior to Justice League

No sale. Whedon--the guy behind failed TV series such as Firefly and Dollhouse? Or the cartoonish, bloated mess that was Age of Ultron? Yes, that Whedon had no business anywhere near the DCEU, and as noted earlier, the results stand as irrefutable evidence of that fact.

It's a frankenstein's movie which was clearly forced to prioritize speed over quality and that's not the fault of anyone on the creative side.

Whedon was not a random gun for hire with no creative input of his own. One--he would not take a job to be just that, and two, the very reason he was brought in on JL was for Whedon to exercise his creative vision. He is as responsible for that disaster as the WB brass.

 

[captainkirk]

failed TV series such as Firefly

 

[DigificWriter]

No sale. Whedon--the guy behind failed TV series such as Firefly and Dollhouse?

Firefly wasn't a failure.

The series was deliberately sabotaged by executives who got cold feet because Joss didn't give them what they were expecting.

 

[JD]

No sale. Whedon--the guy behind failed TV series such as Firefly

Firefly might have only lasted half a season, but was definitely not a failure. The only reason it didn't last longer was because of the network screwing around with it. Even though it only lasted one season it still proved popular enough to get a major theatrical release to conclude it's arc, which didn't exactly set the box office on fire, but is still a lot more than most one season shows. Even now 18 years later, it is still talked about, gets con panels, and is currently sustaining both a monthly comic book series, ocaisional one off comics and graphic novels, and an ongoing series of novels. I think most TV producers wish they could have a show that "failed" that hard.

and Dollhouse?

Dollhouse managed to last two seasons, so it obviously wasn't a complete failure.

Or the cartoonish, bloated mess that was Age of Ultron? Yes, that Whedon had no business anywhere near the DCEU, and as noted earlier, the results stand as irrefutable evidence of that fact.

The fairlures of Age of Ultron were not Whedon's fault, the whole reason it ended up such a bloated mess was because of what Marvel forced on him, and the lack of full creative control he had. So it was a very similar situation to what happened with him and Justice League.

Whedon was not a random gun for hire with no creative input of his own. One--he would not take a job to be just that, and two, the very reason he was brought in on JL was for Whedon to exercise his creative vision. He is as responsible for that disaster as the WB brass.

I'd say it pretty much all lies on the WB brass since they were the ones who brought him in half way through production, forced a relatively short run time of only 2 hours on him, and did not give him any extra time to work on it after they brought him in.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

... the very reason he was brought in on JL was for Whedon to exercise his creative vision.

Can you really call a movie that he had no control over the initial tone, story, and a bulk of the shots "his" vision? Do you honestly believe that the movie we got was the exact movie we would have ended with had Whedon been brought on from the get go and Snyder wasn't attached to the movie at all? Be honest please.

 

[crookeddy]

The mistake was on WB for deciding to Marvel-ize a movie that just wasn't designed for it. The casting wasn't right for it, the colors weren't right, the tone of the previous movies wasn't right... it was just not possible to pull off.

 

[UssGlenn]

So, I never saw the Whedon version, after hearing how disjointed it was. I'm looking forward to seeing the Snyder cut finally.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, Whedon was just there to execute a brief and pick up a paycheck. It was in no sense "his" movie.

I do honestly think Snyder's version will be better since at least it will (presumably) have more tonal and thematic coherence. That doesn't mean I think it will be "good". For it to be good, Snyder would have to suddenly become a good filmmaker, and I'm sorry, but he's just not. At least not when it comes to comic book adaptations.

See, the core problem isn't the style, or whether or not the villain looks like an angry cutlery draw, it's a fundamental lack of understanding when it comes to what makes these characters who and what they are. Same thing happened with 'Watchmen' (which I liked, despite it's shortcomings); he was good at conveying the visuals of how these characters should look, how to shoot and frame them at rest and in action scenes. All of that was well done.
Where it all falls flat is in the character. Batman is not an unthinking, bigoted thug...at least when anyone not named Frank Miller is writing him. Superman is not some Ayn Rand poser boy, perpetually angsty at how much a burden it is to be so great. Johnathon Kent does not raise his son to prioritise his personal convenience above other people's lives, and Martha Kent would never utter the words "you don't owe the world a damn thing". And Wonder Woman sure as hell does not give up on humanity. Ever.

These aren't superficial creative choices, subject to interpretation; they're fundamental traits. What makes Superman Superman is precisely that he's intrinsically selfless. In his right mind, it would never occur to him that saving people is burdensome, in any way. Nor would he feel that the world owes him anything. Quite the opposite. If he didn't think that way then he would be little different from Zod.
What makes Wonder Woman Wonder Woman is her unswerving faith in the goodness of people and her belief in justice and peace.
What makes Batman Batman is his intellect and more critically, his empathy.

 

[crookeddy]

Yeah, Whedon was just there to execute a brief and pick up a paycheck. It was in no sense "his" movie.

I do honestly think Snyder's version will be better since at least it will (presumably) have more tonal and thematic coherence. That doesn't mean I think it will be "good". For it to be good, Snyder would have to suddenly become a good filmmaker, and I'm sorry, but he's just not. At least not when it comes to comic book adaptations.

See, the core problem isn't the style, or whether or not the villain looks like an angry cutlery draw, it's a fundamental lack of understanding when it comes to what makes these characters who and what they are. Same thing happened with 'Watchmen' (which I liked, despite it's shortcomings); he was good at conveying the visuals of how these characters should look, how to shoot and frame them at rest and in action scenes. All of that was well done.
Where it all falls flat is in the character. Batman is not an unthinking, bigoted thug...at least when anyone not named Frank Miller is writing him. Superman is not some Ayn Rand poser boy, perpetually angsty at how much a burden it is to be so great. Johnathon Kent does not raise his son to prioritise his personal convenience above other people's lives, and Martha Kent would never utter the words "you don't owe the world a damn thing". And Wonder Woman sure as hell does not give up on humanity. Ever.

These aren't superficial creative choices, subject to interpretation; they're fundamental traits. What makes Superman Superman is precisely that he's intrinsically selfless. In his right mind, it would never occur to him that saving people is burdensome, in any way. Nor would he feel that the world owes him anything. Quite the opposite. If he didn't think that way then he would be little different from Zod.
What makes Wonder Woman Wonder Woman is her unswerving faith in the goodness of people and her belief in justice and peace.
What makes Batman Batman is his intellect and more critically, his empathy.

Who gave you the right to say what these characters are or aren't? It's his interpretation, valid as any others.

 

[JulieYBM]

That Superman isn't out there making Tik Tok videos about the evils of capitalism and the military industrial complex goes to show that these films don't really intend to ever be about something. They're always going to protect the status quo for the sake of the oligarchs.

 

[The Realist]

That Superman isn't out there making Tik Tok videos about the evils of capitalism and the military industrial complex goes to show that these films don't really intend to ever be about something. They're always going to protect the status quo for the sake of the oligarchs.

Well, that's certainly a take. Though per crookeddy, it's as valid as any other.

 

[Tosk]

Who gave you the right to say what these characters are or aren't? It's his interpretation, valid as any others.

We all have the right to state our opinions.

 

[Anwar]

Combine the two! Selina and Helena leave Bruce because he's gone unhinged. Selina runs a successful, legalized brothel. Bruce returns and cries in front of them, something that shocks them into giving him a second chance. Voila!

Back on this intriguing tangent...

If they had bothered going down this route, who would you have wanted cast as Helena? We'd need someone who looked like a teen but also convincingly tough as Batman's little girl.

Mackenzie Foy?

Millie Bobby Brown?

 

[JulieYBM]

Ah, jeez, that's tough. Probably MBB? She's got the skills but I guess it also depends on who they cast as Selina. I say do a screw ball and maybe cast an unknown trans actress to give the role of Helena some new dimension beyond just being Batman and Catwoman's daughter.

Helena would be about seventeen years old, maybe? Conceivably, I'd just cast an adult.

 

[JD]

Who gave you the right to say what these characters are or aren't? It's his interpretation, valid as any others.

My only complaint about the Snyder version, is that they are the only versions we were getting in the movies. They would have been fine as an Elseworlds kind of thing, with some other versions closer to how they are usually portrayed in the comics as the core versions.
According to a recent conversation Snyder had on Vero, the Snyder Cut will address the empty pod on the Kryptonian ship in some form.
It becoming clear that they are using this as a way to address all of the left over stuff from the earlier movies that they are now trying to move away from in the theatrical releases.

 

[crookeddy]

My only complaint about the Snyder version, is that they are the only versions we were getting in the movies. They would have been fine as an Elseworlds kind of thing, with some other versions closer to how they are usually portrayed in the comics as the core versions.
According to a recent conversation Snyder had on Vero, the Snyder Cut will address the empty pod on the Kryptonian ship in some form.
It becoming clear that they are using this as a way to address all of the left over stuff from the earlier movies that they are now trying to move away from in the theatrical releases.

I've been reading lots of modern comics and they're all pretty much darker than even snyder's takes... Perhaps the time has come to move on from the silver age...

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I've been reading lots of modern comics and they're all pretty much darker than even snyder's takes... Perhaps the time has come to move on from the silver age...

I'm reading modern comics as well, and that's not even remotely true.
It really depends on what you're reading, don't paint them all with the same brush.

 

[JulieYBM]

How about instead of looking to comics we look to other sources of inspiration, lile life experiences and not strictly whether a modern comic is too dark or a sixty year old comic is too light?

 

[JD]

We are talking about comic book movies here, so comics are pretty much always going to be the primary source.