Spoilers Season 3 Episode 5 'Die Trying' promo
- Thread starter Agony_Boothb
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We'll have to wait and see... but I detest the idea of the Federation going bad ... besides, didn't the writers mention that just prior to the Burn the Federation was going strong?
It would make sense if someone wanted to destabilize it internally (like the Romulans tried), so someone concocted a plan to cripple it by making most Federation ships end up destroyed by compromising their dilithium... an event that would also have far reaching implications for the Federation and fracture it.
I'm reminded of Commodore 'O' (from Picard) who was a Tal-Shiar agent in disguise.
I got no problem with it..........seems like EVERYONE has gone into CYA mode in the future, which would be a primal instinct. Federation gone bad has been talked about for years and Oded Fehr isn't uaually cast as the hero type, so we will have to see how it plays out. I like not knowing WTF to expect. I damn sure did not see Space Ghost Gray happening.
Who always shows up when there's a deadly threat to the Federation? Who has their own rules and takes over and tosses ethics into a black hole in the name of Federation survival?
That's right everyone, Section 31 has entered the chat.
Oded Fehr's character: We've had legends going back a thousand years of our lost super powerful AI and the mountains of data it had in its grasp. And now you show up with them at our doorstep. Yay!
I mean, the Federation is shown to have very protectionist instincts when there are threats at times, so I have no issue with it either.
People can be cast against type and he was the good guy in The Mummy movies.
Besides we all know the real villain is Book
(David Ajala played a villain on Supergirl)
No man who owns a cat that fluffy can be evil.Besides we all know the real villain is Book
And the sneak peek scene is here
Bloefield was misunderstood!
I'm guessing these are just easter eggs but also seems to indicate that starfleet has a wide reach if they're keeping tabs on the founders and the kazon.looks like the founders made it to the 32nd century
and more surprisingly the Kazon
Instincts don't exist (people simply respond to external stimulus/environment).
So there's nothing 'primal' to revert to... at least Discovery acknowledged that behavior is shaped by environment (which is scientifically accurate).
At any rate, if the Federation/Starfleet suspect the Burn was an attack (which successfully destroyed majority of Starfleet ships in a single blow, not to mention potential stations etc.), that's cause for concern... and to see a fully functional (and unscathed) seemingly Federation ship popping out of nowhere would be... suspicious to some of them (at the very least, they'd be correct in asking questions).
As of right now, Starfleet/Federation apparently have no idea what caused The Burn... and in the trailer for Season 3, we heard Michael say 'The Federation gave me a mission, to find out what caused the Burn'... it kinda seems to tie into the idea she had to have been given that mission by Starfleet/Federation... and why would they do that? To mislead Discovery crew?
With all the technological advantages Starfleet/Federation enjoyed, they probably could disintegrate Discovery in a second if they went bad.
But one of the potential reasons I think that it may not be Federation/Starfleet HQ is because it seems too early to stumble upon them... and we saw Disco pulling a ship out with a tractor beam (which could be the perpetrator who set the illusion up)... or it could be something entirely random.
Also, why would the Federation go bad? What possible reason could they have to throw their portion of the Galaxy (which seems to stretch across half the Galaxy by this point... or more) into such a chaos?
Did they wake up one morning and say: 'We're bored, let's go blow up tens of thousands... if not hundreds of thousands [or millions] of ships and end millions [or billions] of lives to spice things up' - after which they twirled their mustaches and laughed menacingly like cheesy villains do?
I'm not familiar with Odeh Fehr too much, but from what I do understand, he wasn't always cast as a villain (and I wouldn't really use that as a basis for Federation going bad). TV series pick different actors for different roles... they won't necessarily give those actors same/similar roles they played in the past.
Sure, Disco went the unusual route with things, but that's also not a reason to think the Federation went bad... still, its early days, and things are up in the air.
We'll have a better idea what's happening next week when we see the actual episode.
Its fun speculating though.
If this is Starfleet/Federation that Discovery found, I don't see why they wouldn't have.
930 years is a ridiculous amount of time and I'd be surprised if Warp drive didn't become equally ridiculously fast/efficient, and/or other FTL methods were used by the Federation to explore the entirety of Milky Way and accept new members across the Milky Way.
Mind you, keeping tabs on the Founders could also be done via the Bajoran wormhole or just by having some kind of formal diplomatic contact with them (and the Kazon - Starfleet could have sent other ships to the DQ for exploration in the 25th century to try and establish formal relations with some of the species Voyager encountered and try to mend fences with not so friendly ones), but its also possible the wormhole became off limits or has been reduced in use as propulsion capabilities on ships vastly improved over time.
I would be curious to see this expounded upon. I don't wish to sound argumentative but I was just reading about several different instincts and I work with both instincts and learned behaviors. I think this a rather broad sweeping generalization or I'm missing some information.
Simple-power. If they control some facet of the Burn they are in power and control.
Protectionist does not equal going bad/evil.
Or are we suggesting that the Burn was an attack because the Federation turned bad?
Meh... that could work as far as reasoning goes... but to be fair, this doesn't make too much sense from what we saw thus far.
Earth didn't have a resentful view of the Federation.
Neither did the Trill (heck they suggested to join back once the Federation returns) - although, if someone is part of a union they wouldn't necessarily see that the organisation they are part of turned bad (still, I just don't see Starfleet and the Federation doing that).
Section 31?
Yes.
Starfleet/Federation at large? Doubtful. I'm guessing SOMEONE would have noticed this at some point and brought it to light like we saw in the 24th century... but I suppose we can use the trope 'its been 930 years, ANYTHING could have happened' and just accept it as a possibility (but a mere possibility... nothing concrete).
I would be curious to see this expounded upon. I don't wish to sound argumentative but I was just reading about several different instincts and I work with both instincts and learned behaviors. I think this a rather broad sweeping generalization or I'm missing some information.
Well, as an example... birds don't migrate because of 'insticts'... they are simply more sensitive to changes in the Earth's magnetic field... and when the change shifts, they respond to this change.
Some aquatic animals have biological sonar (on which the technological one was based) which they use to navigate and orient themselves based on what is present in environment.
I've seen too many people clinging to the notion of 'instincts' whilst completely ignoring the simple mechanistic approach to behavior of humans, animals and plants for example.
The notion of 'free will' has been disbanded for the simple reason that there are a ton of environmental processes that impact human biology (which is comprised of many elements) in general that finally prompt us to respond in a certain way depending on how we were raised and what we learned.
I know some people would say its 'reductionist' ... but some people overtly over-complicate matters when they are realistically fairly simple.
Ok... but Starfleet/Federation are ALREADY in 'power and control' of a large portion of the Galaxy to begin with.
If they caused (or participated in the Burn), they'd end up causing massive harm to themselves... unless you're suggesting its something they hadn't accounted for - which resulted in a Milky Way scale event that left EVERYONE in the lurch.
Sounds like a radical departure from the Federation/Starfleet we know.... in fact, it sounds like something the Mirror Universe Terran Empire would do.... not the Federation.
I have a hard time reconciling with that notion... also, I don't think the writers gave us much of a cause to think this in the interviews leading up to Season 3 (which they said would see Trek return to a more 'hopeful tomorrow' - which was a bit of a rough start with the death toll in the first episode, but that could have been an exception rather than the rule).
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I do think that is too reductionist but your point is interesting.
Just because they caused it doesn't mean the consequences were intentional. It may have been to consolidate control of dilithium only for it to destroy their own reserves in the process.
But, I don't think any of this will actually happen. I think The Burn was a freak accident and figuring out how it happened is essential to restoring some semblance of normalcy for the Federation. But, there will be those who are too afraid to want to make some changes that might come with that discovery.
Why is it too reductionist?
Understanding human behavior may seem complex, but this notion of 'complexity' also arises from self-romanticism of sorts (because people like to think of themselves as more important, and we live in a system that seems to teach humans that we are 'at the top of the food chain'... which is also a completely wrong outlook and part of the reason we are in the mess we are in today.
Now, mind you, I'm not trying to propose we aren't complex creatures.. in a way we are, but we also live in a culture/world/system that makes a huge thing out of something relatively basic (which is not too difficult to understand either once you gain more knowledge on the subject)... especially in developed cultures which think that basic science is not 'attractive' enough to people and therefore need to embellish things constantly (just look at journalistic headlines... they almost never reflect accurately what's in the article itself... and the main reasoning behind that is because they need to grab people's 'attention' in the current system to get more clicks/views/revenue).
Also, A LOT of this stuff (the notion of 'instincts' and 'human nature') predates several past decades of scientific research... the premise that they hold up in the general population to this day is also evidence that the 'average joe' across the globe sorely lacks exposure to relevant general education (basic methods of science), critical thinking and problem solving (plus, growing up and examining human behavior up close and personal, I could see how kids behaviors are directly shaped by the environmental stimulus they got on a daily basis - but most people were unaware of this).
When humans (for example) don't have a good scientific grasp of how the natural world works, they are more easily manipulated and used by others... and tend to adopt various explanations that 'fill the gaps'... because those explanations also stem from the notion that intentionally inflate people's egos (whereas exposure to basic methods of science and diverse fields tend to temper such notions) because we live in a system that almost demands it (because it always wants to sell you something).
But this doesn't imply the Federation was evil or turned bad. Consolidating control of dilithium would in that case be nothing more than being more careful how the remaining amounts of dilithium were used.
It would be no different than Voyager introducing replicator rations in the early seasons due to having power issues.... only in the case of Dilithium it would be on a larger level.. and the Burn could have ended up being an accident which the Federation unintentionally caused in that case.
My reasoning as well... but we'll see.
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Section 31 probably
I just completely disagree but at this point I'm too emotionally worn out to go further. Suffice to say, I think there are a lot more interplays than just the "tableau rasa" of human behavior, with an interconnectivity of biological and psychological needs.
Another video clip and still, They haven't told us or even indicated just where Starfleet HQ is...
Curiouser and Curiouser...
I'm beginning to think that it's actually DS-9 (which has probably been expanded upon and changed) or at the very least in orbit near Bajor.
Maybe They are keeping it a secret because They have completely redesigned DS-9.
Curiouser and Curiouser...
I'm beginning to think that it's actually DS-9 (which has probably been expanded upon and changed) or at the very least in orbit near Bajor.
Maybe They are keeping it a secret because They have completely redesigned DS-9.
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