Spoilers United Earth and its policies

[eschaton]

I got no impression from the UDF that they were xenophobic, nor a dictatorship. Earth still looks like a paradise to me, it's probably running as well as it ever did.

They were only isolationist because of the disaster that hit them and the entire galaxy. I think it is a lot easier to be isolationist when long haul warp travel is now very rare, putting your resources into defensive structures makes way more sense. Though it is pretty short sighted when you think about it a bit.

This.

I mean, it seems like interstellar trade is a fraction of what it once was. Couriers and raiders are an issue, but nothing that a single planet can't handle on its own. Basically why bother forming an interplanetary state when logistics are hard to coordinate, there's nothing much worth exchanging, and common defense is no longer needed?

 

[Imaus]

Beyond the Burn, medicine has taken long strides backwards, and only the filthily rich can now afford to have facehuggers removed.

I wonder why the brave new Earth insists on being "United"? Is it out of perverse pride of once having been disunited, sorta Oz style? Or is it blatant "Our ancestors used to kill and eat each other, fear us!" propaganda? I'd think this would have worn off already in the thousand years of not having separate nations.

Timo Saloniemi

The Federation was, well, Federal. United Earth as a polity never ended, it just gave up some of its sovereignty and joined a union. The Federation handled treaties, the currency, and that sort of stuff, while United Earth managed earth and presumably, Most of the Solar System. And below that there are continental-ish unions - European, African, maybe the United States of America is around still, but under the UE government.

Federation breaks, United Earth just becomes a independent nation again.

 

[NCC-73515]

I wonder why the brave new Earth insists on being "United"? Is it out of perverse pride of once having been disunited, sorta Oz style? Or is it blatant "Our ancestors used to kill and eat each other, fear us!" propaganda? I'd think this would have worn off already in the thousand years of not having separate nations.

Timo Saloniemi

Why does the USA keep the U?

 

[Timo]

The USA is a young nation. The UE ceased to even be a nation for a thousand years. On the other hand, its internal "United" structure was young when it abandoned nationhood. So my question is, why would it cling to that novel and untested structure for a millennium, rather than change it a dozen times to find something that worked better in the federal reference frame and in light of interstellar wisdom and experience? And/or why would it return to that untested and ancient arrangement when seceding after those thousand years?

if it was important symbolically to return to a pre-Federation format, why not go further back still? "United" is still uncomfortably close to the time when Earth sold its soul to the interstellar community. Simple "Earth" would be both more forward-looking and a better homage to that which was, methinks.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And below that there are continental-ish unions - European, African, maybe the United States of America is around still, but under the UE government.

They are.

 

[Timo]

...It's just that there's zero onscreen indication that this might be the case.

The government of Earth before or after joining the UFP was never examined in enough detail for us to be able to tell whether it's possible for those from Europe to vote for Europe, or those from the US to vote for the US. A likelier case would be that this single world has a single government, which is not divided along ancient lines on the map at all; if there's to be division by geography, the whole of North America would be a likelier division. Yet why divide at all? A hierarchy of governing that takes into account local conditions need not be geographical until it truly gets local.

All sorts of speculation is possible. But none of it is supported by onscreen data. If anything, the existence of the US is defined by the cessation of existence of its characteristics in the course of the Trek pseudohistory; the same goes for any other provincial political entity.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The USA is a young nation.

That's true.

The UE ceased to even be a nation for a thousand years.

While it's technically true that Earth ceased to be an independent sovereign nation when it founded the Federation, given the existence of ambassadors to individual member planets and basic logistical realities it seems likely that United Earth -- in the line with other member planets -- retained most of it's sovereignty on internal matters not related to collective defence similar to the US and some other countries in the RW.

in fact, it's at least possible that the UEDF is essentially the old UE Starfleet (that may have served a similar capacity to the DCNG/DCANG as the Terrestrial Defence Division under UFP) renamed to emphasise its independence.

 

[Tuskin38]

It's just that there's zero onscreen indication that this might be the case.

There’s zero indication for your point of view as well.

It’s a bunch of unknowns

 

[The Wormhole]

the episode shows an alien EDF officer

IIRC, there was also a Tellarite in the EDF. Logically, there would have been plenty of aliens on Earth at the time of the Burn, among them plenty who would have been permanent residents, perhaps even for several generations prior. Indeed, what we see in the episode indicates Earth is isolationist to the extent that even humans living elsewhere in the Sol system were seen as a threat. They were Earth First, everyone else back in line, but they were not a homo sapiens only club.

 

[Deks]

I remember seeing a Tellarite in the EDF when they first beamed aboard too and that black faced alien.

So, no, Earth isn't xenophobic. It still has dozens (possibly hundreds or thousands even) of different alien species living there... they just decided to focus on personal defense (due to dilithium raiders) and making themselves self-sufficient after the Burn (though to sever all ties with the rest of SOL seems... stupidly odd).

We know Titan became self-sufficient and separated from Earth around the time or just after the Burn, but despite of this... why wouldn't they maintain some kind of ties with each other?
Titan could be vulnerable to dilithium raiders as well.

Self-sufficiency or not, they're inside your own neighbourhood, and I'd imagine it would have been more 'realistic' if the policy of 'United Earth' stretched across the entire Solar system and was called 'United Solar system' (or something to that effect).

I can see a defensive shield going around the entire Solar system with the Dyson Swarm in operation around our Star (now THAT would have been amazing to see).

 

[Nerys Myk]

We know Titan became self-sufficient and separated from Earth around the time or just after the Burn, but despite of this... why wouldn't they maintain some kind of ties with each other?
Titan could be vulnerable to dilithium raiders as well.

Arrogance? Shear fucking hubris?

 

[rhllot]

This.

I mean, it seems like interstellar trade is a fraction of what it once was. Couriers and raiders are an issue, but nothing that a single planet can't handle on its own. Basically why bother forming an interplanetary state when logistics are hard to coordinate, there's nothing much worth exchanging, and common defense is no longer needed?

The federation was originally formed for the common defense of an intergalactic empire, now I assume that empires no longer exist.

 

[rhllot]

The Federation was, well, Federal. United Earth as a polity never ended, it just gave up some of its sovereignty and joined a union. The Federation handled treaties, the currency, and that sort of stuff, while United Earth managed earth and presumably, Most of the Solar System. And below that there are continental-ish unions - European, African, maybe the United States of America is around still, but under the UE government.

Federation breaks, United Earth just becomes a independent nation again.

If I remember correctly, the countries were practically dissolved after the third world war. united earth was created with the help of the vulcans.

 

[rhllot]

That's true.



While it's technically true that Earth ceased to be an independent sovereign nation when it founded the Federation, given the existence of ambassadors to individual member planets and basic logistical realities it seems likely that United Earth -- in the line with other member planets -- retained most of it's sovereignty on internal matters not related to collective defence similar to the US and some other countries in the RW.

in fact, it's at least possible that the UEDF is essentially the old UE Starfleet (that may have served a similar capacity to the DCNG/DCANG as the Terrestrial Defence Division under UFP) renamed to emphasise its independence.

the federation was always an allegory of the united states. United Earth would be like New York, Vulcan like California, Andoria like Alaska, Tellar Prime like Texas, etc.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The federation was originally formed for the common defense of an intergalactic empire, now I assume that empires no longer exist.

What? There was no "empire" when the Federation was formed.

 

[Deks]

The federation was originally formed for the common defense of an intergalactic empire, now I assume that empires no longer exist.

The Federation was/is NOT an empire.

 

[rhllot]

The Federation was/is NOT an empire.

I guess I didn't express myself well. the federation was created after the coalition of planets defended itself from the attack of romulan star empire.
on the other hand, the federation could be considered an empire. Many people in the third world speak of the "American empire", although the USA is not an empire on paper, its political, economic, and military power makes many think that it is an empire.

 

[rhllot]

What? There was no "empire" when the Federation was formed.

the federation was created after the war against romulan star empire

 

[Nerys Myk]

the federation was created after the war against romulan star empire

Which makes more sense.

 

[Deks]

I guess I didn't express myself well. the federation was created after the coalition of planets defended itself from the attack of romulan star empire.
on the other hand, the federation could be considered an empire. Many people in the third world speak of the "American empire", although the USA is not an empire on paper, its political, economic, and military power makes many think that it is an empire.

There is a huge difference in how the UFP is run.
Empires tend to expand on conquest and rule through fear and subjugation (like the Klingons do).
The Federation does none of those things.
Furthermore, the Federation uses its resources toward exploration and defense against external threats (Starfleet also never fires first).
Federation is based on freedom, equality/equity, etc.#

As for people in the third world thinking America is an empire... well, they're not entirely wrong because of how USA approaches certain matters is distinctively imperialistic.
Also, USA by itself is a third world nation in most respects... its response to Covid-19 alone is distinctly third world, and an MIT economist warned in 2017 it regressed to a 'developing nation status'.