Hard Time

[Tribble Threat]

I just watched Hard Time, the one where an alien planet charged O'Brien with espionage, and implanted false memories of prison in his mind. I thought it was one of the best things I've seen in a long time. It had suspense and mystery, and it really makes you think about prison.
What did you think of it?

 

[tomalak301]

I just watched Hard Time, the one where an alien planet charged O'Brien with espionage, and implanted false memories of prison in his mind. I thought it was one of the best things I've seen in a long time. It had suspense and mystery, and it really makes you think about prison.
What did you think of it?

If it weren't for The Visitor, Hard Time might have been the most emotional episode of that season. It really is an underrated gem.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I think that it is a generally excellent episode that probably would be considered one of the 20-30 best franchise episodes had it not been for the subject matter. Colm Meaney is masterful. If I have any complaint, it's that the episode needed at least some affirmation of the need for therapy. It didn't to be much--perhaps in the final scene with Bashir, O'Brien has just come from a session with Telnorri, and it was Telnorri who prescribes the medication--but enough to say that O'Brien would not get over his experiences without therapy.

 

[Oddish]

Am I the only one who thinks the Defiant should have dropped a photon torpedo on that "prison" facility? Either in retaliation or just to rid the galaxy of that abomination of a place, pick one.

 

[XCV330]

Am I the only one who thinks the Defiant should have dropped a photon torpedo on that "prison" facility? Either in retaliation or just to rid the galaxy of that abomination of a place, pick one.

what authority did they have to do that?

 

[fireproof78]

If I have any complaint, it's that the episode needed at least some affirmation of the need for therapy.

Completely agree.

Am I the only one who thinks the Defiant should have dropped a photon torpedo on that "prison" facility? Either in retaliation or just to rid the galaxy of that abomination of a place, pick one.

It's not like they had any right to do so, since it wasn't a part of the Federation.

 

[Oddish]

I would say that the unjustified torture of a Federation citizen is an act of war. And you can't say O'Brien wasn't tortured. Especially criminal was that the sentence was designed to be irreversible, i.e. the memories couldn't be erased.

 

[Mojochi]

It's sincerely my favorite O'Brien story ever.

 

[Tribble Threat]

Am I the only one who thinks the Defiant should have dropped a photon torpedo on that "prison" facility? Either in retaliation or just to rid the galaxy of that abomination of a place, pick one.

That prison absolutely is unjust, and the act of war argument is worth considering.

 

[Tosk]

Am I the only one who thinks the Defiant should have dropped a photon torpedo on that "prison" facility? Either in retaliation or just to rid the galaxy of that abomination of a place, pick one.

Would you be okay with it if the roles were reversed? Let's say an alien visiting Earth broke one of our laws and had to spend time in jail. And in their culture incarceration is one of the vilest acts imaginable, so when he is released he rallies the military of his planet to attack Earth. ...that's cool?

I would say that the unjustified torture of a Federation citizen is an act of war.

It's not an act of war unless their goal was specifically to provoke a war.

And you can't say O'Brien wasn't tortured. Especially criminal was that the sentence was designed to be irreversible, i.e. the memories couldn't be erased.

Is prison torture? A prison sentence once served cannot be erased either.

 

[Oddish]

* Miles was undoubtedly innocent of wrongdoing.
* Given his behavior upon his release, it's plain that he was tortured to near-insanity.
* Given that memory erasure is reasonably easy, the punishment was obviously carefully designed to make the memories impossible to delete. Again, a deliberate effort to maximize the cruelty of the sentence.

If we tortured an innocent visiting alien to that degree, and his ship responded by destroying the police station at which the torture took place, vaporizing the people involved... I would consider that an understandable reaction.

 

[Tosk]

Miles was undoubtedly innocent of wrongdoing.

Not by their standards he wasn't. Clearly they take the possibility of espionage extremely seriously.

Again, a deliberate effort to maximize the cruelty of the sentence.

You're assuming facts about the procedure that aren't in evidence. We only know that due to the way they are created, they are real memories and not falsified ones that could be easily removed. As Bashir says, he absolutely could erase Miles' memories. But erasing all his memories was (for obvious reasons) never on the table.

The experience was clearly unpleasant, but the Argrathi method allows the "prisoner" to make their own decisions. They didn't make Miles accidentally murder his cellmate, they supplied the situation and let it play out. Miles is tortured because he's a good man who made a mistake whilst in a horrible situation.

If we tortured an innocent visiting alien

Not innocent. This hypothetical alien broke one of our laws. It killed someone.

 

[Oddish]

I get the point. You would not have dropped a photon torpedo on the prison complex. That's very considerate of you.

 

[XCV330]

I get the point. You would not have dropped a photon torpedo on the prison complex. That's very considerate of you.

gunboat diplomacy has its limits. it is also unethical. it will immediately develop resentment. in the offended nation state even if there is a thin veneer of peace, there is a cultural wound, and as nothing stays static, those feelings and historical markers escalate. Not to mention such events can be instigated or at least helped along by agents of foreign powers eager, for whatever reasons, to create a proxy war to study their real enemy's asymmetrical responses.


Or they could just charge in Hoo-ah to punish a sovereign power for its jurisprudence to an engineering chief.

 

[Oddish]

An innocent citizen of the Federation has been subjected to what effectively should be considered years of torture, which has left him emotionally unstable and suicidal. What is an appropriate approach to deal with those who perpetrated this?

 

[Tosk]

I get the point. You would not have dropped a photon torpedo on the prison complex. That's very considerate of you.

It doesn't really matter if I would do it or not, you asked if people thought that the Defiant should have done it. I was attempting to use the facts of the matter to refute your claim that they should have done so.

An innocent citizen of the Federation has been subjected to what effectively should be considered years of torture

Again, not innocent. They just have a different opinion on what constitutes espionage. It's quite important to know and obey local laws when visiting a foreign land. And not torture, unless you consider incapacitation to be torture. Miles' mental anguish stems from his own decisions made during the simulation.

More accurately put, "A citizen of the Federation has been subjected to what effectively should be considered years of incarceration."

Edit: I retract my claim that he was not tortured. Even though Miles got to make his own decisions in the sim, the program did cause him to miss many meals. Which ratcheted up the tension he felt, leading to decisions that he would not otherwise have made. He "killed" his cellmate, (the cause of his pain in the real world) but it was ultimately because of the food being withheld.

...that's not to say that I think the Defiant should have razed the complex though. I still don't think that's remotely the appropriate response.

 

[Oddish]

Then I offer you a question in response, the same I previously stated. A Federation citizen has been unjustly and mercilessly tortured by another polity. Do you simply condone their actions? Or do you retaliate in a way that doesn't involve large explosions?

 

[XCV330]

Then I offer you a question in response, the same I previously stated. A Federation citizen has been unjustly and mercilessly tortured by another polity. Do you simply condone their actions? Or do you retaliate in a way that doesn't involve large explosions?

There are a variety of diplomatic measures.

The United States doesn't rain tomahawks down on Istanbul every time some American tourist gets accused of stealing artifacts or smuggling hashish.

 

[Tosk]

Then I offer you a question in response, the same I previously stated. A Federation citizen has been unjustly and mercilessly tortured by another polity.

Is this a theoretical question unrelated to Hard Time? I don't agree that this is necessarily an accurate description of what happened to Miles. It resembles it, but it's couched in more emotional terms to make it seem like there can only be one response.

I don't know exactly what action I personally would take in the situation but I can tell you what actions I would not take, and what actions I don't believe Starfleet would/could/should take.

 

[Crazyewok]

There are a variety of diplomatic measures.

The United States doesn't rain tomahawks down on Istanbul every time some American tourist gets accused of stealing artifacts or smuggling hashish.

Yeah but the USA did kick up a huge stink when Otto got tortured to death in a North Korean Prison Camp. Ok there wasnt a war but they are least got some angry letters.