Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x01 - "That Hope Is You, Part 1"

[rhllot]

there are still Bourbon Restorationists in France. I believe they have a political party.

On a more ancient note, after the last traces of the Western Roman Empire dissolved in the 470's, the dream of it did not die. Almost a hundred years later, Justinian was still trying to recreate a united Roman Empire, and he nearly did. In the end, though he mostly helped make things in the west worst than they already were. Indeed creating the office of Holy Roman Emperor to placate Charlemagne almost 300 years after Romulus-Augustus was sill some glimmer of the idea that had been Rome, though it was not at all a return to some forgotten status quo. It can be a fringe idea, but it can also be an idea held onto by people who have a vague consciousness of better days behind them.

The Holy Empire was not the Roman Empire, it was a new state with laws and administration different from what the Roman Empire was and did not include the entire Western Empire and also had new territories.

what I'm saying is that from what we see in the show there is no longer a state called the federation, only isolated groups that continue to believe in the reconstruction of something that ceased to exist.

states die and what comes next is no longer the same

 

[BillJ]

states die and what comes next is no longer the same

Technically, if the Federation is completely dead then whatever rises in its ashes will not be the same organization, regardless of what it calls itself.

 

[XCV330]

The Holy Empire was not the Roman Empire, it was a new state with laws and administration different from what the Roman Empire was and did not include the entire Western Empire and also had new territories.

what I'm saying is that from what we see in the show there is no longer a state called the federation, only isolated groups that continue to believe in the reconstruction of something that ceased to exist.

states die and what comes next is no longer the same

The Roman Empire was still an idea. Pope Leo III was not a fool. He understood that he was not bringing back the Roman Empire. Nor would he really have wanted to, as it would have interfered with his own self-granted temporal powers. As I tried to convey, and apparently failed at doing so, it was the IDEA of what had once been was used to keep this new idea conveyed into a title. Everyone knows the HRE was not a continuance of the WRE, but if the Roman Empire had not been important in the title, Leo would have called him something else.

as far as the idea of a state dying, of course they do. Whether they can be resurrected is another matter. I believe they can. Israel is not the same political entity that existed under the house of Ben David, or even the Maccabees, but it does exist, and contains a link to that past in that it has instituted cultural and religious ideas to have a connection to what came before, going so far as to even resurrect a language into common use that for centuries had had only a liturgical role. Try telling an Israeli that they live in Palestine.

As discussed earlier, China has survived multiple invasions, conquests and ended up converting the conquerors into the culture they attempted to dominate. China is still here.

Ideas are powerful things, and when they are attached to a culture or a state, they may be impossible to completely remove.

 

[NCC-73515]

Adira - the non-binary character who refers to the Discovery as a "museum" in the 'This season on' trailer - is a 32nd Century Starfleet officer, as is the FTM Transgender Trill character Gray whom we saw in pre-release trailers.

I don't see any similarity between Adira's uniform and those from Relativity - do we know it's a Starfleet uniform and not a Trill one?

 

[DigificWriter]

I mistook the silver lapel button/badge on Adira's uniform for a Starfleet Delta Shield badge.

So disregard my previous comment.

 

[Lord Garth]

Jammer's review is up. A decidedly in-the-middle review.

For anyone who doesn't like DSC, you'll be at home in the Comments Section, maybe. Most of the posters there tend to be in a category where they think the pinnacle of Star Trek was from the third season of TNG to the end of DS9. They want Discovery (and Picard) to be like that, but Star Trek is never going to be like that again.

 

[BillJ]

Jammers' review is up. A decidedly in-the-middle review.

I don't agree with everything there, but it seemed a pretty even-handed review.

 

[Hythlodeus]

the reality is that the federation has always been a metaphor for the united states

In a cold war sense and not much else

 

[rhllot]

The Roman Empire was still an idea. Pope Leo III was not a fool. He understood that he was not bringing back the Roman Empire. Nor would he really have wanted to, as it would have interfered with his own self-granted temporal powers. As I tried to convey, and apparently failed at doing so, it was the IDEA of what had once been was used to keep this new idea conveyed into a title. Everyone knows the HRE was not a continuance of the WRE, but if the Roman Empire had not been important in the title, Leo would have called him something else.

as far as the idea of a state dying, of course they do. Whether they can be resurrected is another matter. I believe they can. Israel is not the same political entity that existed under the house of Ben David, or even the Maccabees, but it does exist, and contains a link to that past in that it has instituted cultural and religious ideas to have a connection to what came before, going so far as to even resurrect a language into common use that for centuries had had only a liturgical role. Try telling an Israeli that they live in Palestine.

As discussed earlier, China has survived multiple invasions, conquests and ended up converting the conquerors into the culture they attempted to dominate. China is still here.

Ideas are powerful things, and when they are attached to a culture or a state, they may be impossible to completely remove.

The closest thing to the old Chinese empire was the puppet state of Manchukuo, but the people's republic is no longer the china of the past, it is a new state that was born in 1949 and for years Mao dedicated himself to destroying the Chinese past.

states die the only current country that can truly say that it maintains a millenary institution is Japan with its emperor

 

[rhllot]

In a cold war sense and not much else

Do you remember Kirk reading the constitution?

 

[Hythlodeus]

Do you remember Kirk reading the constitution?

I remember. Doesn't make the UFP the USA though. I can read the US constitution too and I would be surprised if the EU suddenly transformed itself into the US because of that

 

[valkyrie013]

Waiting for the episode where the Disco crew meet what they think is a Vulcan, and someone says, no there Romulan, and the crew goes.. WHAT??

 

[Isaac Lawrence]

Jammer's review is up. A decidedly in-the-middle review.

For anyone who doesn't like DSC, you'll be at home in the Comments Section, maybe. Most of the posters there tend to be in a category where they think the pinnacle of Star Trek was from the third season of TNG to the end of DS9. They want Discovery (and Picard) to be like that, but Star Trek is never going to be like that again.

Yeah, for a lot of these critics of the Discovery it seems as though that Star Trek is circa 1992 The Next Generation. That's Star Trek to them and anything other than that isn't.

And the emotions thing again...

The direction and Sonequa Martin-Green push too hard with the viscera of the situation at times, providing numerous examples of Burnham's Excessive Emoting, particularly after she crash-lands and discovers she's alone, and also when Book tells her that the Federation collapsed about 150 years ago (which she can't believe, although, let's face it: 900 years is a really long time and such a thing should never have been considered out of the realm of possibility when leaving the 22nd century).

Isn't William Shatner's Captain Kirk...

...pauses

...like a beloved Star Trek institution? That stuff is gold.

So she would be inline with Classic Trek. Back when the Captain and the ship's doctor emoted; and now in this case the First Officer.

And the surprise that she would be surprised that the Federation is diminished is an observation/critique that I'm not sure I will ever understand.

Anyway...

 

[Lord Garth]

Yeah, for a lot of these critics of the Discovery it seems as though that Star Trek is circa 1992 The Next Generation. That's Star Trek to them and anything other than that isn't.

It's like one of those random days where I decide to listen to terrestrial radio and I'll put on a Rock Station that's supposed to be "modern" rock. They shit on everything, then they'll play some Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins, and Stone Temple Pilots, then go back to going on about whatever they're complaining about. Somewhere in there, they'll throw in "Smells Like Teen Spirit". That's where they are.

 

[cooleddie74]

Waiting for the episode where the Disco crew meet what they think is a Vulcan, and someone says, no there Romulan, and the crew goes.. WHAT??

To DSC's credit they haven't mentioned nor even alluded to the Romulans even once over the course of two whole seasons, even when the hint of a Romulan alliance with T'Kuvma's sect would have helped explain their cloaking device. So far the series is rigidly conforming to TOS continuity regarding the Romulan isolationism prior to the Neutral Zone outpost attacks.

 

[Noname Given]

"Lieutenant Spock. I saw your service record. For such a young Starfleet officer and Vulcan your number of commendations is most impressive. You honor Vulcan with your service aboard this ship."

"Thank you, Councillor. And I, of course, am familiar with your career, and honored that you would deem me worthy of such a statement."

Actually, given Spock is a Vulcan/Human Hybrid; T'Pol, if still alive, might very well be interested in meeting him personally, given her character history.

 

[cooleddie74]

"You may not be aware of this, Lieutenant, but I once conceived a half-human, half-Vulcan child with a former shipmate of whom I was quite fond. Our offspring was the first known child conceived with human and Vulcan DNA."

"Fascinating. Your service record failed to mention that."

"For reasons I choose not to elaborate upon."

 

[Yistaan]

"You may not be aware of this, Lieutenant, but I once conceived a half-human, half-Vulcan child with a former shipmate of mine of whom I was quite fond. Our offspring was the first known child conceived with human and Vulcan DNA."

"Fascinating. Your service record failed to mention that."

"For reasons I choose not to elaborate upon."

T'Pol: You owe your existence to me Lieutenant Spock. I told Sarek, "Forget Vulcans and their illogical arranged marriage customs, dating humans is the future."

Spock:

 

[Isaac Lawrence]

It's like one of those random days where I decide to listen to terrestrial radio and I'll put on a Rock Station that's supposed to be "modern" rock. They shit on everything, then they'll play some Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins, and Stone Temple Pilots, then go back to going on about whatever they're complaining about. Somewhere in there, they'll throw in "Smells Like Teen Spirit". That's where they are.

And sometimes you close your eyes
And see the place where you used to live
When you were young

I guess I shouldn't be too critical of things like that because everyone likes what they like.

I can easily be accused of being a prisoner of the moment type. Almost everything new I think is better than before, so...

At some point though, yeah, maybe it's time to just move on. Wait for Strange New Worlds and see if that works. Discovery is always going to be about Michael Burnham. And it's going to be serialized and more action-oriented. That's the show. If you like it, great. If you don't, why are you still watching?

I tried The Expanse. I really wanted to like it. I watched an episode or two when it was on SyFy and it didn't do it for me. When it went to Amazon I binged all the seasons and watched last season. It still didn't work. It felt way too contemporary to me and didn't feel like the 24th century at all. I didn't buy into it.

The new season starts in December. It would be weird to watch it and then complain about it. It's like, why would I do that?

Excerpts from some thoughts I shared on Facebook:

* I wasn't initially sure how I felt about Book, but he started to grow on me as the episode progressed, just like Burnham started to trust him more as their little misadventure progressed. I'm still not entirely sure what got him from skepticism about the Federation and its ideals to helping Burnham and Sahil honor those ideals, though

He may not be really that skeptical of it.

More bemusement than anything else is what I read into it. This thing, this "Federation," hasn't been a thing for over a century. Why are there people still clinging on to this old idea?

He described her as like a re-enactor in the Instagram post. So the Federation true believer's are probably just some kooky people to him. But he's going to help her out because she's good people.

 

[Cyrus]

There will eventually be an episode explicitly titled "That Hope is You, Part 2" coming at some point in DSC's future, but it's not going to be this season.

Seems like we are getting "Unification part 3" 29 years after Parts 1 and 2 aired. Hopefully part 2 of this one won't take as long.