Burnhams surprise at the fall of the Federation so far in the future....illogical?

[F. King Daniel]

Federation citizens are taught from birth that the Federation is pure, utopian and almighty. The ultimate ideal.

It's bullshit of course, but it's indoctrination. So yeah I buy her response 100%.

 

[Deks]

Federation citizens are taught from birth that the Federation is pure, utopian and almighty. The ultimate ideal.

It's bullshit of course, but it's indoctrination. So yeah I buy her response 100%.

On what are you basing this?
There is 0 evidence to support that claim.
Also, the Federation is not a utopia... what is it with people projecting 'utopia' on something that looks different which solves most current problems (which is more than possible) and happens to WORK (also possible)?
Seriously... to an average person from the real world who doesn't know any better, anything different from Capitalism that aims to solve the fundamental problems we face is labeled stupidly as a 'utopia'... without realizing that capitalists themselves say 'this is the best system there is and no other system will or could possibly work' and are basically describing a 'utopia'.

Sheesh... Utopia implies perfection, that you reached a state from which you cannot move forward (aka, what Capitalists usually say about Capitalism).
That's not what the Federation is... and if you do, then I have to question what show did you actually watch.

 

[F. King Daniel]

On what are you basing this?
There is 0 evidence to support that claim.

A lifetime of watching Trek.

I will give that much of it is probably due to bad writing and writers' terrible worldviews.

 

[garakvsneelix]

Maybe Burnham's reaction is a bit illogical, but it is an emotional reaction, so the absence of logic is no logic error to me.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Why should BUrnham NOT be upset that the Federation she's worked so hard to defend has suffered a calamity? Is she supposed to be HAPPY about it?

 

[Deks]

A lifetime of watching Trek.

I will give that much of it is probably due to bad writing and writers' terrible worldviews.

Writers are most likely a primary culprit... that much I agree with.
They tried injecting real life aspects (idiotic notions) into something that was supposed to be well beyond that.
They didn't exactly flesh it out entirely... partly because of their own bias and growing up in a system/world that's a polar opposite... which is probably why they ended up confusing so many people.

However, down to the core, you see that the 'heroes' around which the TV shows are centered don't muddy things up.
They tend to have a clear view of what the Federation is and what its supposed to represent... something a lot better compared to what was before, and they act in accordance to such views.

Looking at a lot of scifi shows, I see writers ignorance (and general lack of even basic scientific education) seeping through.

It looks to me like the writers don't really understand well the real world (which is a given), or the universe they are writing the stories about.

 

[plynch]

Ya but after the AI kill us they turn into sexy blondes and have babies with us and we make a new earth together. So at least we gat a happy ending

Gene's Vision

 

[Oddish]

Utopia is a system where human beings are better than they are.
People with power use it selflessly for the good of others.
People always give their best efforts for the good of the many, even if not rewarded.
A government with absolute power can be trusted.

The genius of the American system isn't socialism, or capitalism, or nationalism. It's recognizing that human beings are #$%@*-ing pricks.
It invites achievement by REWARDING achievement.
And it prevents abuse of power by limiting power.
Instead of ignoring human weaknesses or hoping we'll evolve past them, it acknowledges what we are.

 

[BillJ]

It invites achievement by REWARDING achievement.

Or, like a lot of folks, they simply inherit it and claim they worked for it. So much of American achievement is highly dependent on what vagina you fall out of.

And it prevents abuse of power by limiting power.

Yeah... that hasn't exactly been working out over the last four years.

 

[fireproof78]

Why should BUrnham NOT be upset that the Federation she's worked so hard to defend has suffered a calamity? Is she supposed to be HAPPY about it?

Indeed.

 

[NeoStar9]

So would I, but you and I weren't raised by Vulcans to follow the Vulcan way of life (I sure as hell wasn't anyway). As I said in my OP "An understandable initial shock but also illogical given her Vulcan upbringing.".

The show has in partly been about and shown how's she been pushing back on that and embracing her life more. Going for a more balanced approach. Sometimes her Vulcan side wins out and other times she gives into her humanity. She was at her most Vulcan when she arrived on the Shenzhou. Even from that point to the start of Discovery she changed. She's been embracing her humanity more and more. Her reaction makes perfect sense given how the character has evolved and how she was at the end of season 2 which for her at the start of season 3 has only been an hour or two. Things are still extremely raw for her.

 

[Oddish]

Or, like a lot of folks, they simply inherit it and claim they worked for it. So much of American achievement is highly dependent on what vagina you fall out of.

That's hardly unique to us, though. And remember, say what you like about our system, we have 11 million people who actively chose to sneak across our borders just so they could live under it. Do you see people sneaking into that worker's paradise, Venezuela?

And regarding abuse of power... you have no idea what a government with truly absolute power can do to its citizens. Just take a look at Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot. Or, parts of America under the Jim Crow laws.

 

[BillJ]

And regarding abuse of power... you have no idea what a government with truly absolute power can do to its citizens. Just take a look at Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot. Or, parts of America under the Jim Crow laws.

Have you not seen what happens to African-Americans here, and other minorities?

Do you see people sneaking into that worker's paradise, Venezuela?

Yes. Americans hiding from US taxes.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

It can be logical to think that it might not last 1000 years, but still be shocked when you find out it didn't.

I mean, would it have been better TV if she should instead be so nonplussed at hearing the news that she would just say "OK....that makes sense."

Maybe if she were were born a Vulcan and adopted the Vulcan ways for her entire life, but that's not Burnham. Burnham lived on Vulcan for a while, but she is still very human and often displays her human emotions. That is, if Spock happened to be there too and heard about the fall of the Federation along with Burnham, I expect the writers would have had Spock say something like "It's logical to believe that it would not continue this long" while Burnham or another non-Vulcan would be shocked.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, would it have been better TV if she should instead be so nonplussed at hearing the news that she would just say "OK....that makes sense."

Apparently that is the way to react to bad news.

 

[Oddish]

Have you not seen what happens to African-Americans here, and other minorities?

A white cop murdered George Floyd. He will answer for that crime.

In Jim Crow America, white cops, white lynch mobs, and white domestic terrorist groups (which the KKK were) regularly lynched black people and got away with it. Indeed, the KKK and their sympathizers introduced the notion of gun control to America (previously unthinkable due to the Bill of Rights) with the "black codes" for that purpose: it's no fun lynching people when they're shooting at you.

Like it or not, most black violent deaths these days are at the hands of other blacks. It's not racism, it's a toxic culture. And yes, white racism is partly to blame for it: decades of slavery and a century of Jim Crow did help form that culture. But comparing the isolated racism of today to the institutional racism of yesterday is ridiculous.

 

[BillJ]

But comparing the isolated racism of today...

Isolated racism? You have got to be kidding?

 

[Oddish]

Isolated racism? You have got to be kidding?

Well, consider...
Do you see any "white" and "black" schools? I don't.
Any drinking fountains labeled "white" and "colored"?
Any motels that won't admit blacks?
Any diners with "white" and "black" seating areas?
Any buses that make blacks give up their seats for whites?
Any shoe stores that draw outlines of black children's feet because they're not willing to let them try shoes on?
Does anyone care if a black person kisses a white one on TV?
Is the KKK truly feared? Or are they just derided as a bunch of sick idiots in white nightgowns?
And look at this site's policies: it permits obscene language, but restricts a word found in 1800's literature. A time when you couldn't even say "damn".

Racism is not dead yet. It was too pervasive and long lasting to die overnight. But today's version is laughable compared to what was going on less than a generation ago.

 

[Lord Garth]

A white cop murdered George Floyd. He will answer for that crime.

In Jim Crow America, white cops, white lynch mobs, and white domestic terrorist groups (which the KKK were) regularly lynched black people and got away with it. Indeed, the KKK and their sympathizers introduced the notion of gun control to America (previously unthinkable due to the Bill of Rights) with the "black codes" for that purpose: it's no fun lynching people when they're shooting at you.

Like it or not, most black violent deaths these days are at the hands of other blacks. It's not racism, it's a toxic culture. And yes, white racism is partly to blame for it: decades of slavery and a century of Jim Crow did help form that culture. But comparing the isolated racism of today to the institutional racism of yesterday is ridiculous.

There's a new and different type of Jim Crow today. By throwing blacks in prison and having felonies on their records, society disenfranchise them, takes away their right to vote, makes it harder for them to get jobs (who wants to hire someone with a criminal record?), which forces them into impoverished areas. The racism still exists. It's just taken a different form that's not as obvious as it used to be.

 

[fireproof78]

Last I checked this wasn't TNZ.