• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Burnhams surprise at the fall of the Federation so far in the future....illogical?

All Empires throughout history have fallen, no matter how glorious or powerful they were at their peak - it's logical to assume the Federation will at sometime fall too -is Burnhams surprise that it no longer exists nearly millennium into her future illogical? An understandable initial shock but also illogical given her Vulcan upbringing.

The Federation is not an Empire.
Empires usually spread through conquest and can end up too big to control - and besides, they tend to rule through fear and subjugation (none of which exist in the Federation) which usually lead to revolts/civil wars that tend to bring them down down the line.

The Federation doesn't work like that. Its based on diplomacy, freedom, equality/equity, free exchange of knowledge, technology, resources, and uses a policy of non-interference when it comes to internal affairs of alien cultures - alien species are in the Federation because they WANT to be, not because they are forced - and heck, alien species that do become part of the Federation do not lose their cultural identity... obviously, because there are social aspects for a society to manage which is needed to become a member of the Federation, some cultural changes ensue to ensure that the newcomers can 'function' as part of the Federation, but they tend to retain A LOT of their cultural identity as well).

If a first contact with a new culture is established, it gauges both sides more or less in regards to technological and social levels.
Not every species will be accepted into the Federation, and some baseline parameters need to be met on a social level... but the Federation doesn't force these things on others... they are a guideline.... something a society must be willing to do on its own in order to qualify for membership of their own accord.

This is why alien cultures are usually introduced to places like starbase Yorktown to demonstrate what life in the Federation is like.

Because the Federation mixes hundreds (and probably by the late 29th century) thousands of species, prospective member planets need to overcome social issues before joining to avoid or minimize such problems happening when they do become members of the Federation - otherwise, it wouldn't work.

And Burnham's shock at the prospect of the Federation falling is not unusual.
The Federation is an amazing idea... and I would imagine that alien species don't become members of the Federation for the perks alone or just because they said: 'We're bored, lets join the Federation to spice things up.'
Granted, some may have started off for different reasons (to get mutual protection), but that kind of mindset doesn't persist for very long when you essentially start creating a vast alliance between multiple alien species who had to learn to work together over centuries and travel to each other worlds to live and work there for personal betterment and betterment of others... so no, I don't think that something as big or quite like the Federation would fall apart internally. If anything, it would adapt/change and grow over time to become even bigger and better.

Albeit... in the 930 years, a lot of things that Burnham wouldn't/couldn't know about may have happened that could have brought the downfall of the Federation (such as massive interstellar conflicts that may have arisen or unforseen catastrophes)... however, it is highly unlikely it would be an 'internal' matter (aka, social aspect).. but more to the point an external one (a targeted attempt to bring down the Federation and potential species which could become part of it because someone or something may have considered it a threat given what it created and just how fast they are advancing as a result), or a simple accident of massive (galactic) proportions.

Besides, she was fresh out of a wormhole and 930 years in the unknown future while being cut off from her ship and crew.
Spock can be emotionally compromised and not necessarily show it... I think Burnham should be cut some slack.
 
Last edited:
Burnham took Archer's promise of ten thousand years of Federation rule too literally... :D

from Jonathan Archer's infamous Federation speech ;) :

The remaining Romulans will be hunted down and defeated! Any collaborators will suffer the same fate. These have been trying times, but we have passed the test. The attempt on my life has left my engineer dead and buried, but I assure you my resolve has never been stronger! The Romulan war is over! The Romulans have been defeated, and their attempt to invade Earth has been foiled. We stand on the threshold of a new beginning. In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Coalition of Planets will be reorganized into the first Galactic Federation, for a safe and secure society, which I assure you will last for ten thousand years! A Federation that will continue to be ruled by this august body and ruled by the majority, ruled by a new constitution!

We have been tested, but we have emerged stronger. We move forward as one people: the citizens of the United Federation of Planets. We will prevail. Ten thousand years of peace begins today.


:p
 
Last edited:
Just because it would be rational to assume something does not mean that it would not still be suprising or shocking in the short term, especially after having just been through something suprising and shocking. Indeed,she only learns of the demise of the Federation hours after having to work to save life in the galaxy.

Besides, emotions tend to be amplified for dramatic purposes.
 
Just because it would be rational to assume something does not mean that it would not still be suprising or shocking in the short term, especially after having just been through something suprising and shocking. Indeed,she only learns of the demise of the Federation hours after having to work to save life in the galaxy.
It's not like she had a lot of time to transition from one emotional state to another. The ability to cope with shocking events can only go so far.
 
It makes sense to us that she shouldn't be surprised. But, Trek has always portrayed Federation citizens as thinking that the Fed is the greatest thing that's ever come along and therefore it must be everlasting. From that viewpoint, we can imagine her shock.
Still, these Federation people really need to be more realistic....

I think real life people need to get out of the notion that a great idea can actually WORK in practice without making it out as a 'pipe dream' or 'naive' or 'utopia' even and that it can endure for a VERY long time.

Besides, Discovery writers mentioned that the Federation was still going very strong and that it was only 'the Burn' which ended up bringing it down due to inability/impracticability to send ships to assist to areas etc. (apparently).

To be fair though, why isn't Transwarp beaming a regular thing by this time?
Scotty apparently solved it (according to prime Spock) in late 24th century... you'd think that by the 32nd century, the Federation wouldn't rely on ships alone to render aid and maintain itself.

In fact, you'd be able to send various supplies and repair systems to starbases and outposts in space and other planets.
The entire Federation would need to be inter-connected with transwarp beaming amplifiers... and that's not a problem to do since the Federation has subspace sensor stations all over its space (and on planets).

The built in redundancy systems that were in place seemingly disappeared... or the writers conveniently decided to ignore all of that in favor of the burn to bring down the Federation.
 
To be fair though, why isn't Transwarp beaming a regular thing by this time?
Maybe they decided to take the Star Trek 2009 novelization into account where even transwarp beaming needed dilithium (below from memory alpha):

According to the novelization of Star Trek, in the alternate reality, Scotty had been toying with the notion of transwarp beaming for years. Spock revealed that the only thing missing from the theory was the correct field equation for the continuous recrystallization of dilithium while transport was in progress. This allowed the steady usage of power during transport. It was the discovery made by Scott in the future of the prime reality. After seeing Spock's complete theory, Scotty realized he could not resolve the central string as it had never occurred to him to look at the event from the perspective of the one who was beamed. Spock however stated it in fact did occur to Scott when he added the adjunct equations related to dilithium.
 
All Empires throughout history have fallen, no matter how glorious or powerful they were at their peak - it's logical to assume the Federation will at sometime fall too -is Burnhams surprise that it no longer exists nearly millennium into her future illogical? An understandable initial shock but also illogical given her Vulcan upbringing.
England as a nation state has been around since 927AD, if you consider the UFP a nation state then no, she is not being illogical
China - 2070 BCE
 
Maybe they decided to take the Star Trek 2009 novelization into account where even transwarp beaming needed dilithium (below from memory alpha):

According to the novelization of Star Trek, in the alternate reality, Scotty had been toying with the notion of transwarp beaming for years. Spock revealed that the only thing missing from the theory was the correct field equation for the continuous recrystallization of dilithium while transport was in progress. This allowed the steady usage of power during transport. It was the discovery made by Scott in the future of the prime reality. After seeing Spock's complete theory, Scotty realized he could not resolve the central string as it had never occurred to him to look at the event from the perspective of the one who was beamed. Spock however stated it in fact did occur to Scott when he added the adjunct equations related to dilithium.

Novels aren't canon though.
I agree that matter/anti-matter is the primary source of power (which requires dilithium crystals to stabilize the reaction), however, transporters can be powered through different means.
Subspace transporters in TNG (which is probably a form of TW beaming anyway) weren't reliant on matter/anti-matter reactors (that I recall)..
And by the 32nd century, alternate power sources would have likely been developed that had nothing to do with dilithium.

But, we still don't know the full story behind 'the burn'.
 
Last edited:
Doesn't the confirmation of the V'draysh being the Federation in the far future mean that Burnham's attempt to revive the ideals of the Federation ends badly?
 
Doesn't the confirmation of the V'draysh being the Federation in the far future mean that Burnham's attempt to revive the ideals of the Federation ends badly?

That is a huge leap based on one of the Short Treks that they may have already jettisoned from their roadmap of the future.
 
I would like it if Calypso were never explained further and it just remains this one beautiful inexplicable story.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top