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Gene gets much bad talk around here....

Have you watched it? That is no myth. It is a slow moving piece to make you think.
Countless times, as part of "the Menengerie" starting in the 60's and the pilot it's self in several forms. It's not particulary slow, especially in comparison to the "Adult Westerns" that Roddenberry was hoping to emulate, including Wagon Train. "The Cage" is in keeping with Roddenberry's "Wagon Train to the stars" pitch, which is basically the Enterprise going to interesting places and meeting interesting people.
 
I'd be willing to bet the "too cerebral" was Roddenberry BS.

It gained so much traction because the fans who first heard it in the 70s liked the "we're smarter than the average bear" feeling it implied.

Let's think like TV execs, what they probably didn't like was the cost and that the captain was a debbie-downer having a midlife crisis. Which were addressed by WNMHGB's lower budget and more vital captain, the overall action-adventure and philosophizing content is pretty similar.

On a related note, I don't feel that TWOK has all that more action than TMP either, both are largely middle aged guys staring at screens, while firing a few phaser blasts in TWOK. The climax of TWOK is certainly more tense than having a conference in a weirdly lit bowl containing an ancient space probe. I sometimes wonder how TMP would be viewed if the originally planned Klingon space battle climax had been used.
 
I’m sure he saw him self as a Jubal Harshaw type.
I had to look that up! :lol:

From Teh Wikiz:
Jubal E. Harshaw, LL.B., M.D., Sc.D., bon vivant, gourmet, sybarite, popular author extraordinary, neo-pessimist philosopher, devout agnostic, professional clown, amateur subversive, and parasite by choice.
Yep, sounds like Roddenberry, although I would adjust "devout agnostic" to "devout atheist-humanist". Other than that, dead-on! "Parasite by choice" :guffaw:
 
I once read the thing with "the Cage" wasn't that it was "too cerebral". The network just didn't like how overly sexual (for the time) it was, what with the aliens trying to breed Pike and all.
Though I can';t remember where I read that.
 
I don’t recall the over-sexualized accusation for Cage (although I’m sure someone might have had a problem with it at some point), but I do remember that a lot of folks, mostly in the Bible Belt, felt that Spock looked too demonic with the ears and eyebrows and really wanted him booted from the cast.
 
For me it is just that GR set himself up on a pedestal (after the event) with all the "Great Bird of the Galaxy" (whatever that really means) nonsense.
He was a flawed man trying to sell this "humanity perfected" and "no more greed" utopia, while being the polar opposite to his own (so called) "vision".
I love the creation not the creator.
 
Sorry to MAGolding this... but it's time for...

A MINI FACT TREK!
Conceived it. Pitched it. Sold it. Hired team members (e.g. Jeffries) and directed and oversaw them. Oversaw everything re. the making of a fine, short sf film (Cage). Did it again. Oversaw the production company creating a weekly, hard-to-produce sf series. Personally produced half the first season, rewriting many or most of the scripts. Oversaw and supervised S2.
Yes. It's in vogue to dis GR's contributions to Star Trek but he did a huge amount of the heavy lifting. People have even gone so far as to claim that Coon invented the Prime Directive but he didn't. It's there in everything but name in GR's May 1965 2nd pilot version of "The Omega Glory". That's not to knock the contributions of others, but the adulation pendulum has swung to the opposite side from GR. Reality is probably more in the middle.

Because I think his importance is overblown [...]
See above.
[...]the moment that TOS was threatened with cancellation he was preparing for the next best thing (See: Assignment: Earth as a backdoor pilot).
Untrue and it misrepresents the circumstances.

GR had a pilot development deal at Desilu and he was expected to make show pitches and pilots. He did the Police Story pilot (link) literally on the heels of "Where No Man Has Gone Before". He pitched other shows, produced (badly, apparently) The Long Hunt for April Savage, etc. Assignment: Earth was something he'd been developing there for years and—after no network went for it—he decided to throw a Hail Mary and get it done as a backdoor pilot.

He left in the third season in part because he got a two picture deal at National General to do a Tarzan feature script, and when that deal all fell apart, Herb Solow brought him over to write Roger Vadim's tasteless Pretty Maids All In A Row. When that bombed GR's nascent motion picture career went down with it, so he turned back to TV with his early 70s pilots.

The script is a mess, with dialogue that is cloying, pretentious and often sexist. The female characters are either sex crazed victims-in-waiting or clichés (No wonder Quentin Tarantino loves this movie). Angie Dickinson, as the female lead, is beautiful to look at but the character is insulting to any woman who has an IQ above room temperature.

Pretty Maids All in A Row goes where Gene Roddenberry often went before, by Joseph Dickerson (link)
Moving on...

It wasn't about the merchandise, so much as how it was done. Roddenberry had already pretty much quit on Star Trek, then made them write in the trinket so he could sell it via his Lincoln Enterprises mail-order company.
As above, he saw the ship was sinking. He had a career to think about. We don't like it but it's understandable why he chased the National General Tarzan deal. He needed work when Trek went belly up. Was IDIC a tacky ploy to make some silver on tchotchkes? Sure. But it was in the spirit of the show which is why it's hung around more than just from Spock's neck.

60’s and 80’s Roddenberry were two very different people.
Not really. I think Gene's basic personality remained the same. But like a lot of people perhaps he became set in his ways and inflexible.

The damning even device that he was the man who raped Grace Lee Whitney probably has something to do with it.
You meant "evidence". And there isn't really any. It's Grace's account, and while I find it credible and it lines up with what we do know for sure happened, it's still not evidence in the legal sense.

I've heard that was myth or perhaps "cerebral" was code for something else. Maybe @Harvey or @Maurice can enlighten me. (us?)
My understanding, from reading Nimoy an Shatner's books, was that "too cerebral" meant the audience would struggle with emotionally connecting with the characters as presented..
I can't remember where I heard it, but somebody somewhere once suggested that "cerebral" was a roundabout way of saying it dealt a little too much with sexuality.
Pretty sure it was Solow who said that about "cerebral" meaning erotic.

From my read of the documents I've seen I think the comment "cerebral" as per the first pilot was because it's all about mind games as opposed not necessarily that the story was too smart for us plebs. As to why "cerebral" stuck with GR, well, Stanley Robertson at NBC liked to use that word in his letters during series production.

Exactly. And, I think it was Nimoy who related in "I Am Spock" that the execs were concerned people wouldn't care about the characters as presented and wouldn't tune in again and again.
Perhaps. According to Solow NBC was not taken by the first pilot's cast, which is a good segue to...

His treatment of Laurel Goodwin (Yeoman Colt) was sleazy. Then after giving him the leg show he wanted he ended up not bringing her back after the pilot anyway. No one even knew about what happened for decades, and she didn't think anyone would care.
Solow has indicated that NBC didn't like the casting of the first pilot other than Hunter and Nimoy...so it was a clean sweep of the rest of the cast and nothing to do with Goodwin particularly. Hence buh-bye to Boyce, Number One, Garrison, Tyler and Colt. Ultimately Hunter flew the coop but NBC never seemed that hot on him to begin with. @Harvey addressed the accuracy of some of Goodwin's recollections here (link), but obviously not on whether GR asked to see her legs (likely).

I don’t recall the over-sexualized accusation for Cage (although I’m sure someone might have had a problem with it at some point), but I do remember that a lot of folks, mostly in the Bible Belt, felt that Spock looked too demonic with the ears and eyebrows and really wanted him booted from the cast.
It was NBC that worried about audience reaction to Spock (hence in the infamous airbrushed photo) and maybe the Bible Belt, but the actual reaction to Spock in general was overwhelmingly positive, and his "devilish" appearance didn't appear to cause any NBC affiliates to drop the show.

From what I've seen, putting aside the rumors about Grace Lee Whitney, David Gerrold and Ellison seem the only people he worked with who particularly disliked him, while on the other hand D.C. Fontana and Robert Justman had some disagreements and grudges against him but didn't particularly dislike him or consider him terrible.
Don't forget John D.F. Black walked as soon as he could due to Gene's rewriting.

Interestingly, if you look at The Lieutenant, made just prior to GR's Desilu deal, it seems he may have been less involved it the making of it than Star Trek. Something about Trek made him incredibly hands-on.

Yes but unsuccessfully by himself. (And I am talking about the actual pitch not the pilot that was made after the pitch). If not for Herbert Solo It probably would never have been made.
That was Solow's job, after all.

Again if you really look at the history of the production of Star Trek, Herbert Solo was just as instrumental as Gene Roddenberry in getting Star Trek off the ground and getting the first two seasons made and completed successfully.
That might be overstating the case somewhat. Solow was key to getting the show on NBC, yes, but as he was overseeing all the Desilu productions, I seriously doubt he gave Trek as much time as the production people did.

Gene Roddenberry seemed a bit more lecherous than most.
Harvey Weinstein and others demonstrate that this is not the case, and the "casting couch" and nepotism goes waaaaaay back in Hollywood.

[...]
20. Cushman & Osborn 2013, p. 513.
21. Ellison 1996, p. 8.
22. Shatner & Kreski 1993, p. 221.
23. Cushman & Osborn 2013, p. 514.
FTFY. :D

Yeah I fail to see how "The Cage" was any more or less cerebral then "Where No Man Has Gone Before".
Solow has written that NBC's difficulty with the first pilot was that NBC's Mort Werner admitted they had picked the wrong story of the ones pitched to them, hence Desilu had proven they could make the show. Because NBC admitted their culpability Solow got a deal for three scripts to be written for a second pilot and NBC put up considerably more $$$ for the production of the second ($209,000) than the first ($185,000). (budgets mentioned here (link))

The pilot was very expensive and took a long time to produce, and I remember one of the things NBC thought was that it would not be possible to maintain this level of production and turn out one new episode a week for broadcast.

That was part of the goal of the second pilot, to prove that they could do an episode a week and deliver something to the network to broadcast.

I suspect NBC didn't care much how long the pilots took to shoot. It was Desilu that had to figure out if they could do it on a reasonable schedule and if they could afford the amount of deficit financing required to make it feasible. People frequently conflate the network and the studio. All the network cares about is that the stories are acceptable and the shows arrive in time to meet their airdates. The rest is the studio's problem.

—whew—
 
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The Fred Fred Freiberger-produced (although Roddenberry was involved to a lesser degree, I think it's generally agreed that he was pretty uninvolved) season 3 is a notable example of how without Roddenberry or Coon producing Trek could have been a different and much weaker show.
 
Just as a general remark, not aimed at you or anyone in particular, I wish that people who know better would correct Wikipedia when claims are made there that cannot be substantiated. I realize that that can be a chore. I personally don't know enough about this subject to able to defend an edit on Wikipedia.

The best I can do in these circumstances is simply amend my post to say that you, a knowledgeable person, have indicated that the sources are in general unreliable (which I presume is what the strikethrough of the source that you gave here means). While rightfully calling all of the material credited to those sources into question and making it suspect, it doesn't indicate which parts of it can be independently substantiated and which can't.
 
Solow has indicated that NBC didn't like the casting of the first pilot other than Hunter and Nimoy...so it was a clean sweep of the rest of the cast and nothing to do with Goodwin particularly. Hence buh-bye to Boyce, Number One, Garrison, Tyler and Colt. Ultimately Hunter flew the coop but NBC never seemed that hot on him to begin with. @Harvey addressed the accuracy of some of Goodwin's recollections here (link), but obviously not on whether GR asked to see her legs (likely).

Nimoy returned but he was NOT the only member of the pilot cast to return. Without stating the obvious, it's somewhat fair to state that the only other actor to make it back was someone he was fucking, so yes, casting couch politics very well could have been a factor. Lucille Ball was certainly not happy about it.

Since second pilot's are almost never ordered, the rationalizations provided in that linked page have very little bearing. Anyone involved in the original pilot had some reason or hope to think they'd be up for a second filming.
 
Yes. It's in vogue to dis GR's contributions to Star Trek but he did a huge amount of the heavy lifting. People have even gone so far as to claim that Coon invented the Prime Directive but he didn't. It's there in everything but name in GR's May 1965 2nd pilot version of "The Omega Glory". That's not to knock the contributions of others, but the adulation pendulum has swung to the opposite side from GR. Reality is probably more in the middle.

It's one thing I learned from reading "The Making of Star Trek" (1968). People may want to try to minimize Roddenberry's involvement because he apparently was a creep (and potentially even worse than that if allegations about him are true). But he was very much involved with the original creation of Star Trek and the day to day work the first 2 years.

For whatever reason, Star Trek was an important project for him and he did everything he could to see it make it to TV.

There were certainly lots of people involved and people like Gene Coon and Herbert Solow also worked hard with their jobs(which is also noted in "The Making of...") but Roddenberry was very much a working producer as well.

There's no way around it. Without Roddenberry Star Trek would never have gotten off the ground. You can say the same bout Coon, Solow and others as well. But you can't remove Roddenberry from the equation.

He was a creep who happened to have a vision that was better than the life he chose to lead.

As above, he saw the ship was sinking. He had a career to think about. We don't like it but it's understandable why he chased the National General Tarzan deal. He needed work when Trek went belly up. Was IDIC a tacky ploy to make some silver on tchotchkes? Sure. But it was in the spirit of the show which is why it's hung around more than just from Spock's neck.

Yeah, I guess it's easy to dump on GR about this because he was a creep in so many ways. But when you look at in the grand scheme of things, this is not at all uncommon. In fact, it's probably more common than we realize.

And while it's tacky, it's not something that ruins "Is There In Truth No Beauty?" for me. I liked the episode and I'll be damned if I let a moment of tackiness ruin the entire episode for me.

From my read of the documents I've seen I think the comment "cerebral" as per the first pilot was because it's all about mind games as opposed not necessarily that the story was too smart for us plebs. As to why "cerebral" stuck with GR, well, Stanley Robertson at NBC liked to use that word in his letters during series production.

That was my initial impressions as well. Not that NBC was too dumb to understand what was going on. In some ways it literally is a 'cerebral' episode as it involves mind control. And it's very talky. It probably would have made an interesting sci-fi movie. But a weekly sci-fi series, probably not. And as some have noted that wasn't the only thing. They had some issues with the cast. And this is not uncommon either. Frequently pilots were bought and some parts recast, hell, it even happened with Gilligan's Island to some characters. What was uncommon here is they asked for a 2nd pilot. That indicated NBC saw potential, but had some significant issues as well. Usually either a network bought in and they just made other changes before the series premiered, or they rejected it. For Star Trek, NBC was obviously on the fence. They weren't ready to reject it, but they obviously didn't like it enough to buy it and just ask for some cast changes.
 
Nimoy returned but he was NOT the only member of the pilot cast to return. Without stating the obvious, it's somewhat fair to state that the only other actor to make it back was someone he was fucking, so yes, casting couch politics very well could have been a factor. Lucille Ball was certainly not happy about it.

Since second pilot's are almost never ordered, the rationalizations provided in that linked page have very little bearing. Anyone involved in the original pilot had some reason or hope to think they'd be up for a second filming.

Well, let's not over-emphasize Majel Barrett's presence. If it weren't for her connection and eventual marriage to GR, she'd just be a minor character that showed up periodically. Frankly, Yeoman Rand is more memorable than Chapel.

Christine Chapel was hardly a major character. She had maybe 1 1/2 major episodes ("What Are Little Girls Made Of" obviously and maybe "The Naked Time" to an extent). Otherwise, most of the time she was a background character that had a few lines here and there, and maybe once in a while had something important to say. And there were many more episodes where she didn't appear at all.

I'm not saying this makes everything ok. Let's just not over-state Chapel's importance to Star Trek. If you completely removed her character from the series you'd lose a grand total of 1 episode. Every other appearance you could pretty much either just remove the scene with absolutely no effect or switch her for any random unnamed character and not miss a beat.
 
Well, let's not over-emphasize Majel Barrett's presence. If it weren't for her connection and eventual marriage to GR, she'd just be a minor character that showed up periodically. Frankly, Yeoman Rand is more memorable than Chapel.

Christine Chapel was hardly a major character. She had maybe 1 1/2 major episodes ("What Are Little Girls Made Of" obviously and maybe "The Naked Time" to an extent). Otherwise, most of the time she was a background character that had a few lines here and there, and maybe once in a while had something important to say. And there were many more episodes where she didn't appear at all.

I'm not saying this makes everything ok. Let's just not over-state Chapel's importance to Star Trek. If you completely removed her character from the series you'd lose a grand total of 1 episode. Every other appearance you could pretty much either just remove the scene with absolutely no effect or switch her for any random unnamed character and not miss a beat.
that could more or less be said for any recurring female character in TOS. Barrett's initial role was not a minor character, of course, and it doesn't seem to me like the had Colt planned to be minor, either.
 
There's no way around it. Without Roddenberry Star Trek would never have gotten off the ground. You can say the same bout Coon, Solow and others as well. But you can't remove Roddenberry from the equation.

He was a creep who happened to have a vision that was better than the life he chose to lead.



Yeah, I guess it's easy to dump on GR about this because he was a creep in so many ways. But when you look at in the grand scheme of things, this is not at all uncommon. In fact, it's probably more common than we realize.

And while it's tacky, it's not something that ruins "Is There In Truth No Beauty?" for me. I liked the episode and I'll be damned if I let a moment of tackiness ruin the entire episode for me.

Not Dumping on Roddenberry. He made Star Trek. He's a creep. You can have your peanut butter and your creepy jelly and still have a Star Trek sandwich.

But..

Something very like Star Trek would have happened one way or another, and quite likely on NBC. NBC had just gone through sometihng of a format war for the color tv standard. CBS had even bought manufacturing ready to start churning out their color tv system as the standard by the millions. But RCA won, and NBC needed something to wow audiences and win customers. NTSC had become the standard, but after all that investment, RCA wasn't selling a lot of color TV's initially. And RCA made most of their money off license fees from all the other manufacturers who sold projects that used RCA patents. RCA Labs was an incredible force in that era, but it took an incredible amount of cash.

SF was undergoing its first literary renaissance with the New Wave writers, Dangerous Visions, etc. There was a crop of extremely good new writers ready to start writing copy, if the usual suspects couldn't hack it. The Space Race was on, Jet Age enthusiasm soared and anyway space looked better than unloading coffins off C-5's. Desilu had the cash and a very forward thinking owner who understood better than anyone the importance of repeat fees, and saw production values as important. So it might have even been a Desilu production.

It's all conjecture but I think if Star Trek had not been made, an ensemble cast show like it, if not also based off Forbidden Planet would have happened, at least once 2001 hit theaters. It's one of those things like the light bulb, airplanes, or wireless telegraphy. If the inventor had not invented it, someone else within a year or two would have.
 
It's all conjecture but I think if Star Trek had not been made, an ensemble cast show like it, if not also based off Forbidden Planet would have happened, at least once 2001 hit theaters. It's one of those things like the light bulb, airplanes, or wireless telegraphy. If the inventor had not invented it, someone else within a year or two would have.
Meh. These sorts of assertions are neither provable nor refutable. We'd be moving into how many angels can dance of the head of a pin territory to seriously consider them.
 
Meh. These sorts of assertions are neither provable nor refutable. We'd be moving into how many angels can dance of the head of a pin territory to seriously consider them.
We'd have to get into Enochian and Agrippa and all the gematria stuff. So far off topic :)
 
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