Spoilers Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Grading & Discussion

[Campe]

Well that’s not entirely true. Luke wasn’t some random nobody. It was established in the first part of the film:

“I want to learn the ways of the force and become a Jedi like my father.”

So the force was already strong in his family, with or without Vader being his father.

Was it? Let's look at Star Wars purely in a vacuum... Poppa Skywalker (let's not call him Anakin at this point) was not the one that the fate of the galaxy was predicated on. In fact, Obi-Wan really plays down the concept of being a Jedi.

LUKE: No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.
BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.
LUKE: You fought in the Clone Wars?
BEN: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.
LUKE: I wish I'd known him.
BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend.

He was a Jedi, a friend of Obi-Wan, who was killed along with a large majority of Jedi. The idea still was that a hero could be anyone and that was Luke. Nowhere does Obi-Wan suggest that having a biological connection in order to make someone strong in the Force.

LUKE: The Force?
BEN: Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

AND

BEN: You must learn the ways of the Force if you are to come with me to Alderaan.

There was no concept that the Force made someone superhuman, that it was any kind of a destiny. Luke tapped into the power with a little bit of training. In fact, if you consider the light side of the Force in Star Wars, really all it does is influences things -- the Stormtroopers on Tatooine and the Death Star, it allows Obi-Wan to feel the destruction of Alderaan, Luke to feel the training drone, to know when to fire his torpedoes, but what does the light side do beyond that?

At the same time, the dark side seems to be more powerful, yes, but perhaps is a slippery slope.

LUKE: How did my father die?
BEN: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

AND

VADER: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

The problem that I have with both Rise of Skywalker and to be honest, to a lesser extent, Empire/Jedi is that it makes the story more of a family squabble that causes the entire galaxy to basically be fighting for the Skywalkers vs the Palpatines.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I see your reasoning and I never looked all that deeply at it, but at the very end, Vader observes

“The force is strong with this one.”

Not “stronger” or “hey this kid’s got potential” but STRONG. Maybe it was because Obi-Wan was connecting with him or maybe it’s something more.

I totally agree, this wasn’t supposed to be a saga about an entire family line of miracle people. But I just felt that the implication was that Luke was strong with the force because of family ties, because his father was a Jedi. Obi-Wan only gave Luke a small handful of tips. For Luke to suddenly become “strong“ with the force simply because Obi-Wan told him to “stretch out with your feelings“ and bat a little ball without looking at it makes the force a little easy to access. Luke coulda given these same tips to a dozen people in the rebellion.

Anyway, it’s obviously open to interpretation since Lucas left it vague. I do agree that the urge to have an act 3 twist in Empire changed everything. I actually liked the on set line of “Obi-Wan killed your father.” That would have been a great and more logical twist.

 

[DigificWriter]

It's kind of sad seeing so many people trying to rewrite history in regards to the debate about Rey's heritage.

Star Wars has explicitly been a "Family Saga" since 1980, which is why people kept insisting that Rey had to be a Solo or Skywalker for nearly three years even though TFA made it crystal-clear that she wasn't and couldn't be based on backstory, previously established characterization, and timeline, and despite numerous people directly involved with Lucasfilm repeatedly and directly debunking such theories online.

Rian and JJ's decisions in TLJ and TRoS - which dovetail much more closely than detractors of both films are ever going to admit - actually completely validate and conform to the established mythological motifs that George Lucas first introduced in 1980 and refined and made explicitly concrete in 1983, 1999, 2002, and 2005.

 

[Booji]

All of this talk about Rey's heritage makes me look back at the one piece of evidence for Rey Palpatine that's in TFA. Her theme. Seriously, listen to the core notes of Rey's theme, and then to the Emperor's.

That's one hell of a coincidence, if it is one.

I'm not sure if I'm more impressed by how effectively that works if it turns out that Williams just happened upon it by complete accident, or if it was intentional and just hidden in plain sight all along. (Or the third possibility, that Williams did it by accident, but it's because of how effectively it works that the choice was made to make Rey a Palpatine.)

Her fighting style was also the same as Palps.

 

[Campe]

I see your reasoning and I never looked all that deeply at it, but at the very end, Vader observes

“The force is strong with this one.”

Not “stronger” or “hey this kid’s got potential” but STRONG. Maybe it was because Obi-Wan was connecting with him or maybe it’s something more.

I totally agree, this wasn’t supposed to be a saga about an entire family line of miracle people. But I just felt that the implication was that Luke was strong with the force because of family ties, because his father was a Jedi. Obi-Wan only gave Luke a small handful of tips.

Absolutely it can be interpreted that way. I choose to interpret that the intent was he simply was pulling from the Force quite a bit at that time -- I suggest that perhaps a the training with Obi-Wan and a survival instinct and let's just be honest, adrenaline, amplified his calling on the Force at that moment.

For Luke to suddenly become “strong“ with the force simply because Obi-Wan told him to “stretch out with your feelings“ and bat a little ball without looking at it makes the force a little easy to access. Luke coulda given these same tips to a dozen people in the rebellion.

Sure he could have. I see no issue with that.

Anyway, it’s obviously open to interpretation since Lucas left it vague. I do agree that the urge to have an act 3 twist in Empire changed everything. I actually liked the on set line of “Obi-Wan killed your father.” That would have been a great and more logical twist.

I agree. I think that would have been a fine twist and would have been more logical and less requiring of Jedi's plot acrobatics in order to make it work.

And please mistake none of this: Star Wars is my favorite film series and the original is my favorite movie of all time. It does not mean that any of these movies are beyond criticism. Each and every entry has its flaws.

 

[fireproof78]

Luke coulda given these same tips to a dozen people in the rebellion.

And that was the point was that the Force could be accessed by many others, which is why the Rebels used it as a greeting.

Star Wars, ANH, definitely started out the saga on one track and then it jumped to another in Empire, and then another in ROTJ. It was a huge, evolving story, that was nowhere near the shape that we have now.

 

[jaime]

You're right. But that really started that far before TLJ. You want to blame a film? Blame Empire. Star Wars, not Episode IV, not A New Hope, but simply Star Wars had a simple story of a farmboy -- a nobody -- becoming a hero. Its a story for the times. One we can all aspire to. Empire made our hero the son of the devil. And Jedi made it worse by making the "only girl in the universe" the hero's sister.

Nah. Unless your father was a hotshot pilot, Jedi, and buddy of a general in the clone wars, you weren’t aspiring to Jack. It’s King Arthur, Harry Potter...secret destiny of the orphan stuff. It’s always been front and centre from act I. Even the quasi incest secret sister stuff is straight out of myth and legend. (Arthur again.) Luke was never a farmboy, that’s the point.

 

[Campe]

Nah. Unless your father was a hotshot pilot, Jedi, and buddy of a general in the clone wars, you weren’t aspiring to Jack. It’s King Arthur, Harry Potter...secret destiny of the orphan stuff. It’s always been front and centre from act I. Even the quasi incest secret sister stuff is straight out of myth and legend. (Arthur again.) Luke was never a farmboy, that’s the point.

Any “secret destiny” came in Empire. Don’t buy into the myth Lucas tried to sell that he had it all planned out. If you’ve not, read Rinzler’s Making of Star Wars and Making of Empire or Kaminski’s excellent (but unofficial) The Secret History of Star Wars. They’re all lengthy but excellent and certainly dispel this myth.

 

[fireproof78]

Any “secret destiny” came in Empire. Don’t buy into the myth Lucas tried to sell that he had it all planned out. If you’ve not, read Rinzler’s Making of Star Wars and Making of Empire or Kaminski’s excellent (but unofficial) The Secret History of Star Wars.

Exactly. Destiny became a larger theme in ESB and continued to run the Star Wars saga for the rest of time.

 

[JD]

I had always assumed that Luke's father being a Jedi was why he was able to become a Jedi. I was massively shocked when they revealed that the Jedi weren't supposed to have kids in Attack of The Clones, because up that point I had assumed that strength in the Force was hereditary.

 

[Tuskin38]

I wish I could change my ranking. Because It's now an F for me after rewatching it twice.

I originally ranked it B+.

It's one of my least favourite movies of the franchise, maybe even worse than the prequels.

 

[Campe]

I had always assumed that Luke's father being a Jedi was why he was able to become a Jedi. I was massively shocked when they revealed that the Jedi weren't supposed to have kids in Attack of The Clones, because up that point I had assumed that strength in the Force was hereditary.

Its just not implicitly stated in the 1977 Star Wars. If its what people feel, cool. But I stand to believe that the original movie intended for the idea that the hero (or Jedi) can be anyone. Even just a simple farm boy. It honestly is a reason I do like TLJ and why TRoS annoys me. TLJ brings it back to that point. TRoS seems to destroy that concept completely.

 

[fireproof78]

Personally, I have no problem with it being both. I just wish one wouldn't get emphasized over the other.

 

[Campe]

Obviously the intent has changed over time. Again, I have no problem with destiny and the Force being a thing. I just like and prefer the concept that anyone can be a hero. It’s a far better message than “only certain families are important” to tell kids. As a relatively new dad, I think about these things this way.

 

[plynch]

It matters a lot to me.

I wasn't a fan of Star Trek 09 for style reasons, mainly, but it did try to emphasize we can make choices, it's not all fate.

 

[fireproof78]

Obviously the intent has changed over time. Again, I have no problem with destiny and the Force being a thing. I just like and prefer the concept that anyone can be a hero. It’s a far better message than “only certain families are important” to tell kids. As a relatively new dad, I think about these things this way.

I don't have a problem with it either. But, like you, I prefer the message of "anyone can be hero" to destiny and family dynasties. Rey being a nobody was appealing, but I also did appreciate TROS in that Rey rejected that familial determinism.

 

[Campe]

I don't have a problem with it either. But, like you, I prefer the message of "anyone can be hero" to destiny and family dynasties. Rey being a nobody was appealing, but I also did appreciate TROS in that Rey rejected that familial determinism.

She rejected one familial connection and took up another name. After almost a year I’m still not sure how I feel about that. Luke really didn’t spend a lot of time with her and while Rey and Leia we’re close , the later never took the name Skywalker. So while I appreciate the concept of rejecting a family, I’m really not sure if she earned the name Skywalker. I would have appreciated had she denied Palpatine and simply stayed Rey.

 

[fireproof78]

She rejected one familial connection and took up another name. After almost a year I’m still not sure how I feel about that. Luke really didn’t spend a lot of time with her and while Rey and Leia we’re close , the later never took the name Skywalker. So while I appreciate the concept of rejecting a family, I’m really not sure if she earned the name Skywalker. I would have appreciated had she denied Palpatine and simply stayed Rey.

I would have preferred Rey of Jakku, embracing that "nowhere" moniker people insisted upon giving a random planet in the galaxy. But, I see it as a start of a new chapter in Rey's life, with her not looking to her past, but fulfilling a legacy she was adopted in to.

At least that was my take.

 

[Campe]

I would have preferred Rey of Jakku, embracing that "nowhere" moniker people insisted upon giving a random planet in the galaxy. But, I see it as a start of a new chapter in Rey's life, with her not looking to her past, but fulfilling a legacy she was adopted in to.

At least that was my take.

Rey from Jakku. I like that.

 

[Saul]

If only Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams had sat down in the same room together and talked about what they were doing in their films. Clearly it seems they didn't. JJ set Rey up as someone, he built a mystery around her as he is known to do with his work. At the end of his movie when Luke is found Luke was still (originally) connected to the force, there were CGI boulders floating around him, obviously Luke using the Force in some kind of meditation. It was Mark Hamill who had to point out that he wasn't connected to the Force in TLJ and the floating boulders were removed from the end scene.

How could such a massive franchise have a lack of communication on this scale? It's an own goal by Disney.