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Lt. Mary Sue on Lower Decks series

You know it's a good idea!

  • Make it so!

    Votes: 18 48.6%
  • The line must be drawn here!

    Votes: 19 51.4%

  • Total voters
    37
It's not really sexist. There's Mary Sue and also Mary Stu for men.

The problem is that very, very few people accuse unrealistically-accomplished male characters of being a "Gary Stu" the way they will a reasonably-accomplished female character of being a Mary Sue.

A prime example is Star Wars. In A New Hope, Luke is an unrealistically accomplished character: He goes from whining about power converters to his uncle, to mourning their deaths for 2.5 seconds, to bravely infiltrating to the Death Star, to becoming one of the few X-wing pilots to survive the TIE fighters, to being able to make a pin-point shot no other pilot could make even though he's not had extensive pilot training, all hand-waved away with the Force and the excuse that he used to do the space-equivalent of shoot groundhogs out of his van. He is a clear self-insert wish-fulfillment figure -- and no one ever calls him out on it.

The Force Awakens, on the other hand, goes out of its way to establish why Rey is good with a lightsaber without training (she had a lifetime of training using a bow staff, a similar weapon), to establish that she had gained experience in ship maintenance and piloting during her time on Jakku, and that her opponent had a major handicap in the form of an unhealed blaster wound that so bad Kylo Ren risked bleeding out... and people still called her a Mary Sue for being handy with a light-saber and for not-quite defeating Kylo Ren. When in reality Rey struggles far more for her accomplishments than Luke ever did.

When the attack is only rarely used against male characters, it becomes apparent that the motivation isn't entirely free of misogynistic bias.
 
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It's not really sexist. There's Mary Sue and also Mary Stu for men.
Really? You are going for "The men too!"? Where are all the polls which ask "Is [Name of male character] a Gary Stu?"?

The history of cinema is full of male characters ridiculously overcompetent and overpowered and no one seriously asked something similar. But, God forbids, we have a badass female character and people toss around the term "Mary Sue" like it is the Ultimate Guilt.

Seriously. It's sexism. Stop.
 
Is the history of cinema full of Mary Sues? I always thought it was a pretty recent thing.

And I'm struggling to think of many too perfect overcompetent male characters anyway. It's a silly term, for either gender.
 
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Is the history of cinema full of Mary Sues? I always thought it was a pretty recent thing.

And I'm struggling to think of many too perfect overcompetent characters anyway. It's a silly term, for either gender.
Well, the Connery's Bond is a great example. There wasn't anything similar in the movies before him.
 
I don't like citing Wikipedia, but I think this is quite relevant (from the Mary Sue page)

In chapter four of her book Enterprising Women,[13] Camille Bacon-Smith states that fear of creating a "Mary Sue" may be restricting and even silencing to some writers. Smith quotes an issue of the Star Trek fanzine Archives[14] as identifying "Mary Sue" paranoia as one of the sources for the lack of "believable, competent, and identifiable-with [sic] female characters." In this article, author Joanna Cantor interviews her sister Edith, also an amateur editor, who says she receives stories with cover letters apologizing for the tale as "a Mary Sue", even when the author admits she does not know what a "Mary Sue" is.
[...]
At ClipperCon 1987 (a Star Trek fan convention held yearly in Baltimore, Maryland), Smith interviewed a panel of female authors who say they do not include female characters in their stories at all. She quoted one as saying "Every time I've tried to put a woman in any story I've ever written, everyone immediately says, this is a Mary Sue." Smith also pointed out that "Participants in a panel discussion in January 1990 noted with growing dismay that any female character created within the community is damned with the term Mary Sue."[16]

However, Bacon-Smith notes that fans have argued that in Star Trek as originally created, James T. Kirk is himself a "Marty Stu," and that the label seems to be used more indiscriminately on female characters who do not behave in accordance with the dominant culture's images and expectations for females as opposed to males.[17]

So, the term "Mary Sue" has been weaponized to suffocate female creativity, and still there are people who feel comfortable using this word. Why? (I know why, it's a rhetorical question ;) )
 
The problem is that very, very few people accuse unrealistically-accomplished male characters of being a "Gary Stu" the way they will a reasonably-accomplished female character of being a Mary Sue.

There actually are some decently well-known ones but it is a pejorative so when it comes up for men, its often in a lesser known work:

* Kvothe from the Kingkiller Chronicles
* Rand Al'Thor from The Wheel of Time
* Richard Cypher from Sword of Truth
* Eragon from Eragon

Also, Luke Skywalker, Batman, and Superman HAVE been accused of it. It's just they have so many fans that it's not always noticed.

Generally, the bar is much higher for male characters than female characters, though. Especially women of color.
 
Idealized self insert characters have been around forever. The original “Mary Sue” was a literal parody of them, on the Enterprise.

It’s fine to call them out when you see them. Just so long as you honestly give male and female characters the same strike zone. (Which the loudest voices usually don’t).
 
Idealized self insert characters have been around forever. The original “Mary Sue” was a literal parody of them, on the Enterprise.

It’s fine to call them out when you see them. Just so long as you honestly give male and female characters the same strike zone. (Which the loudest voices usually don’t).

On TVtropes.org I've already had to remove like five references to Mariner being given special privileges and a double standard due to being a black woman. Which is ridiculous and just the product of people over-identifying with Boimler and expecting him to be the hero.

So I agree.
 
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I think the point that makes this question relevant to Lower Decks is specifically around Beckett Mariner and whether she fits the Mary Sue trope. I've seen this accusation thrown around in angry-man YouTube videos, the type that if you watch them long enough, it's clear they're part of the so-called "Anti-SJW" crowd that will never be happy as long as the main hero roles are anyone other than white men. They won't outright admit that, but that's the total vibe on all those videos and it's gross.

The idea that Mariner is a Mary Sue is easily disproven. She's not, in my opinion, badly written. She's not all-knowing and all-perfect, in fact she has some rather obvious character flaws that I'm sure will be developed as part of her arc. She is, I think, over-confident, slightly arrogant, and disregards Starfleet authority just a smidge too much (again, in my opinion). I think this is best reflected in the microcosm of her outright stating to Boimler basically that she is "always right, never wrong, you should do what I say, got it." She might believe that's true of herself, but that doesn't mean it is, or that the writers believe that it is. I mean let's be real here, she drinks on the job. This will need to be addressed at some point.

Now, sure her approach has worked out well for her these first two episodes, in contrast with Boimler's by-the-books approach proving less effective in real-world situations. But there could come a point soon where the consequences of her actions might catch up with her; We are seeing more of Boimler's arc first, I think, him learning from her, and her growth may come a bit later. We've learned she's even been demoted and shuffled around to different assignments as a result of her difficulties, that's for sure going to be addressed more soon.

She is, however, indisputably more experienced as an officer, and has better street smarts than Brad Boimler, neither of which are superhuman traits and achievements on her part. Boimler's not bumblingly, unbelievably stupid, or unrealistically failure-prone. He's just kind of average, compared to the Starfleet heroes to whom he aspires, and she just (despite her character flaws) happens to have been around the block a few more times, and has experience he lacks. It's totally believable.

But I think that's what actually really sets off these YouTube guys. Here you have a white dude character who is *not* perfect, who is obviously flawed in a way that's occasionally played as goofy for laughs, and here you put him in a workplace where a black woman is successful next to him, and the storytelling conveys that he's got an opportunity and an obligation to learn from her.

I think that really grinds their gears, and I think it's really obvious why that is. They are judging these characters by unequal metrics. Over-perceiving unflattering imperfections imposed on Boimler's character as unrealistic and unfair, and again over-perceiving the positive traits associated with Mariner as somehow inappropriate or undeserved. Too bad these guys can't actually view the show through the lense of Roddenberry's vision which they claim they hold so dear!

There are things about both of the characters that I don't like. Boimler pulling the phaser on Mariner and the farmers. Casually mentioning Section 31. Boimler disregarding Mariner's experience. Mariner not reporting the energy creature, and getting drunk with K'orin on the shuttle. But characterizing their interactions so far as that she's supposedly a perfect do-no-wrong figure, and Boimler the perpetual inferior in all respects, not fair or accurate. It's a bad read, in my opinion a sexist and racist read.

By comparison, I think Discovery is bad for other reasons, and does suffer from bad writing. But I hold that criticisms of Michael Burnham as a Mary Sue are unfair and inaccurate for similar reasons to Mariner in Lower Decks (Burnham is by no means unflawed), and for various other reasons already articulated by others in this thread (ie. by comparison with prior Trek series leads).
 
The canonization of Mary Sue happened in Agents of SHIELD when Skye's real name was revealed to be Mary Sue Poots.
 
On TVtropes.org I've already had to remove like five references to Mariner being given special privileges and a double standard due to being a black woman. Which is ridiculous and just the product of people over-identifying with Boimler and expecting him to be the hero.

So I agree.

Yeah, Mariner's competency is the same level as most of the other male or female characters in the Star Trek universe. She just seems smarter cause she's standing next to the dumbest guy in Starfleet.

There's no good reason at all to accuse Burnham of being a Mary Sue. She's not the most skilled person on the show in any category and she has many flaws. She just has the regular 'Main character' penchant for having better instincts than everyone else about what the next move should be. But so does every other main character in the show's history.
 
Yeah, Mariner's competency is the same level as most of the other male or female characters in the Star Trek universe. She just seems smarter cause she's standing next to the dumbest guy in Starfleet.

There's no good reason at all to accuse Burnham of being a Mary Sue. She's not the most skilled person on the show in any category and she has many flaws. She just has the regular 'Main character' penchant for having better instincts than everyone else about what the next move should be. But so does every other main character in the show's history.

I feel like Burnham gets too much focus because as a cultural Vulcan she's THE STOIC and that doesn't really lend itself well to strong emotional scenes. It's why a lot of the other characters like Tilly, Captain Pike, Lorca, and even Saru have a bit more positive reception. Still, I don't think she's a Mary Sue either.

It's an overused perjorative anyway. If you don't like a character then say, "She's boring" or "I find her annoying" at least give the reason.
 
Yeah, Mariner's competency is the same level as most of the other male or female characters in the Star Trek universe.

There is no one on early TNG or Voyager who has this better than everyone, able to get out of every situation, confident in every situation, never asking others for help, vibe in those shows. In TNG the main characters get their asses handed to them by Q in the first episode. The closest is Wesley Crusher and he has had complaints about this very same issue.
 
There is no one on early TNG or Voyager who has this better than everyone, able to get out of every situation, confident in every situation, never asking others for help, vibe in those shows. In TNG the main characters get their asses handed to them by Q in the first episode. The closest is Wesley Crusher and he has had complaints about this very same issue.

I think my issue is, "I have no idea what you're talking about." The depiction you're getting of Mariner is that she's a hero and the lead while the impression I've got from the show is she's an outrageous f*** up.

Yes, she's formed of an abundance of self-confidence and has a huge amount of energy but literally our first scene with her is that she ends up accidentally stabbing Boimler in the leg. She DESERVES to be demoted to Ensign (if she was a Lieutenant or God forbid, Lieutenant Commander).

I admit part of this may be the writing because I'm not sure what Mariner can teach Boilmer as his mentor since while he needs a lot of what she gots, she needs everything he has too.
 
The leg stab isn't taken seriously at all and neither is punching some random alien or shoving some energy being into the jars. So it doesn't seem like that's the perspective that the show is really presenting. We'll see if they ever get to develop that but 2 eps in the character is grating
 
There is no one on early TNG or Voyager who has this better than everyone, able to get out of every situation, confident in every situation, never asking others for help, vibe in those shows. In TNG the main characters get their asses handed to them by Q in the first episode. The closest is Wesley Crusher and he has had complaints about this very same issue.

Because in TNG the entire cast was over competent. Mariner is the only one in the main cast among ensigns who’s over competent. And also the only one who has been a lieutenant.

Drop her in TNG, DS9, Voyager cast instead of putting her next to the dumb guy, she’s just the Ro or Paris of the cast.
 
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