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Time Travel, Alternate Timelines

If you do the predestination version of time travel it becomes less about averting a catastrophe so much as battling philosophically with the concept of free will.

But there's plenty of ways to have stakes. Maybe you know what happened in the past but don't know how it happened, and how it actually happened had different fates for characters than you thought.

In Chrono Trigger they prevented a person from being killed in the past by swapping him out with a doll at the last moment. They could do something similar, like your friend from the past died in an explosion and they never found the body, but did he die, or did you pull him back to the future at the last moment?

There's lots of clever ways to create stakes even if you can't change the past. The only things you can't change are the things you know for a fact, and how sure are you you know them for a fact really?
 
Here's my take. Star Trek isn't real. After Enterprise and Nemesis, there's two storylines the audience can follow.

Abrams Trek: Time travel reboot on the day James T. Kirk was born. Everything after that has effectively been wiped out. Star Trek is rebooted via time travel.

CBS Trek: Discovery, set 10 years befote the original series. This show is trying to be part of the canon, a prequel to the original show, but also be a modern take on the future. For the most part, it works for me. My issues with the show are less with matching up with old Trek, and more with things just not making sense. Those long wierd airlock tubes instead of just beaming back and forth. Those sphere shuttle things flying through wndless tunnels that should have taken seconds to fly out of. The EMPTY SPACE when they should the turbolift network. It's mostly this crap I take issue with over a canon violation. There's over 700 episodes. They're gonna goof or retcon the canon now and then.

Picard, catching up about 20 years after Nemesis. This show feels like a follow up to 90's Trek.

Can't we just accept that the Abrams movies and CBS Trek are simply seperate storylines? Why do we have to reconcile them? That said, I did like how Picard acknowledged the Trek 09 movie with the supernova and destruction of Romulus.

This was meant to be a brief comment, it became a rant. Sorry, guys.
 
I don't really care about whether Star Trek (2009) "erased" the original timeline or not. It doesn't erase any of my DVDs, so I can still watch whatever I want. I was, initially, annoyed that the Pine/Quinto movies don't take place in the original timeline. It took me a while, but I've mostly gotten past that. I still find it mildly annoying that the entire franchise isn't a single, cohesive-ish timeline. But once I realized that the time travel shenanigans were more of a marketing gimmick than a serious attempt at a time travel story, I stopped caring. CBS/Paramount can do whatever they want. This stopped being my main franchise sometime around 2002, back when Nemesis bombed and I realized that nothing was ever going to top DS9.

As Always, depends on what type of story you are telling. Because most time travel stories use the trope to tell a story, so say if your story involves changing history, and your protagonist is the only one that hasn't changed and wants to put history back right, then a changinging main line would work.
So its basically fit to your stories basic idea.
Marty should have been erased the second he interfered with Pops because he changed the when and where his mom and dad "Coupled" to make him, so that particular Egg and swimmer never met, so he was never born. So he should have disappeared like Bruce Willis in Looper once his present ended.
And in BttF 2, i doubt he met doc brown, so he should have disappeared once Biff changed history, same with Doc.

Honestly, the more time goes by, the more impressed I am by the elegance of the internal consistency of Back to the Future's time travel. You can change time as much as you want and the time traveler is always protected by the changes UNLESS he does something that jeopardizes his own existence. Even then, if there's theoretically time to set things back on track, you won't fade away until you've completely exhausted those possibilities. The time travel has stakes but also the universe just kinda slowly snips away any spare pieces that don't make sense at the end. You can alter the timeline in such a way that your changes will remain even if you don't. (Although it does mean that Doc's concerns about world-ending paradoxes in Part II are completely unfounded.)

As for George & Lorraine's children all looking the same, sure you have to ignore that side of the genetic lottery for the sake of dramatic clarity but it's a small price to pay. Also, keep in mind that, apart from George & Dave, ALL of the men in the McFly family look like Michael J. Fox, so his family may be somewhat locked onto that genetic template at a quantum level.

In the Heinlein books they would label the various timelines by the first person to land on the moon. We live in the "Armstrong" timeline.

Which book was that? I remember a bunch of alternate universes in Job: A Comedy of Justice but I don't remember them naming them. (I don't think that the original universe that they came from even had space travel yet. They were in the universe where everyone was using zeppelins instead of airplanes.)

The grandfather paradox can never be tested until someone travels in time. You don't even have to kill your grandfather.

Yeah, but he's kind of a jerk, so it would be a nice perk.:devil:

Though one thing I do like in alternate timeline stories is the idea that fate might play a role in things happening much like they did in the original idea. Like maybe you go back in time and save JFK but Vietnam still happens and Nixon still get elected.

There's only one way that that can play out.....
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I also like the idea of slight alterations. What if 9/11 happen on 9/12. What if the White House was in Philly instead of Washington. Maybe the internet is called the cyberweb. Things like that. One of things I loved about the show "Sliders."

One of the nice touches in the Stargate SG-1 episode "Moebius"-- Our heroes leave a camcorder with a video message for their alternate selves in an ancient Egyptian burial site that they know will remain undisturbed for 10,000 years. When they unearth it in the alternate present, General Hammond mentions that it uses a power source not compatible with anything available on the commercial market in this altered timeline, so they had to jury-rig an adapter.

Basically, there are 3 kinds of time travel:
Grandfather paradox: There is one timeline and it can be changed. (e.g. Back to the Future, Timecop, pre-2009 Star Trek)
Predestination paradox: You can't change the past. Anything that you do will only serve to create the past that you already came from. (Is Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure REALLY the best mainstream example that we have of this. That doesn't seem right. 12 Monkeys? I dunno. I haven't seen the whole thing. :shrug:)
Multiverse: Each instance of altering the past creates a new, divergent universe.

Grandfather & Predestination seem to be the most common types. Honestly, I think that the reason why the Multiverse isn't used so often is because it's the least dramatically satisfying. That's my biggest gripe with Avengers: Endgame. They use Multiverse time travel, so they can go back and dick around with the past as much as they want with absolutely zero consequences to their own universe. (So they can do things like let Loki escape or potentially kill Star Lord given that he was PUNCHED IN THE FACE BY FRIGGIN' WAR MACHINE!) At least Stargate uses Multiverse time travel properly by always having us follow the altered timeline, so there are proper dramatic stakes to making the changes.

A few pitfalls I would suggest avoiding:

Don't create a really tight Predestination story, then have the sequels mangle it beyond all recognition. *cough*Terminator*cough*

Don't introduce a sexy Irish redhead, then strand her in a post-apocalyptic future, then change the timeline so that future never happens, then never mention her again!:mad: *cough*Heroes*cough*
 
In response to Jayson1's minor change suggestion, 912 instead of 911:

This is interesting to me personally. I met my wife because we have a mutual friend who was supposed to fly to Miami to move to the U.S. on that Tuesday morning. When the planes were cancelled indefinitely she delayed her move for a couple of months. During that time this friend invited me and my to be wife to a party at her house. If our friend had moved to the U.S. when she was supposed to (if it was 9/12 instead) I never would have met and married my wife and we never would have had our children----or they would not have children, etc.
 
Heck, when I look back, I'm always amazed at how years of my train of thought are often set up by some very random, fleeting thought that I had. Change a slight breeze, I never have that thought, and everything veers off in a totally different direction. Sometimes it may not be that different to the outside observer. But I would know the difference.

Heck, if my next door neighbor hadn't decided to give me a Data action figure on my 10th birthday, I probably wouldn't be on this board right now.
 
i watched three seasons of 7 days last week.

They describe the process as erasing people's memories for 7 days.

I'd call it murder.

But I was thinking that if all they are doing is creating a new timeline, and the original timeline survived, then every time they backstepped the sphere, everybody left behind post crisis Just shrugs, and gets on with their aspocalypse.

Also in the forked timeline where Frank Parker always arrives back, and saves the day, that means that the team has never backstepped their sphere.

So the grey in the basement "remembers" all the alt timelines that have happened, so all the crisis ridden futures still exist in some quantifiable fashion at least up until the point that the sphere launched.
 
In Chrono Trigger they prevented a person from being killed in the past by swapping him out with a doll at the last moment. They could do something similar, like your friend from the past died in an explosion and they never found the body, but did he die, or did you pull him back to the future at the last moment?

That's an idea-but it sidesteps the grandfather paradox. What would happen if you DO a Marty McFly and threaten your existence?


Here's my take. Star Trek isn't real. After Enterprise and Nemesis, there's two storylines the audience can follow.

Abrams Trek: Time travel reboot on the day James T. Kirk was born. Everything after that has effectively been wiped out. Star Trek is rebooted via time travel.

This means that the prime timeline is wiped out, and would actually be consistent with the rules of time travel in Star Trek.

CBS Trek: Discovery, set 10 years befote the original series. This show is trying to be part of the canon, a prequel to the original show, but also be a modern take on the future. For the most part, it works for me. My issues with the show are less with matching up with old Trek, and more with things just not making sense. Those long wierd airlock tubes instead of just beaming back and forth. Those sphere shuttle things flying through wndless tunnels that should have taken seconds to fly out of. The EMPTY SPACE when they should the turbolift network. It's mostly this crap I take issue with over a canon violation. There's over 700 episodes. They're gonna goof or retcon the canon now and then.

It's definitely an attempt to be in the original timeline, though everything we see is wiped out by Abrams. That doesn't mean it didn't happen the first time--it just means time travel changed it.

Picard, catching up about 20 years after Nemesis. This show feels like a follow up to 90's Trek.

Can't we just accept that the Abrams movies and CBS Trek are simply seperate storylines? Why do we have to reconcile them? That said, I did like how Picard acknowledged the Trek 09 movie with the supernova and destruction of Romulus.

In some franchises, that works, but Star Trek has always meant to be one universe and canon. The inclusion of Nimoy in the Abrams movies is another attempt to show that was the intent.

If you follow the Roddenberry rules of time travel in Star Trek, then the only conclusion is that the prime universe was wiped out. The Abrams rules state otherwise, but a) the movie didn't establish that, and b) it means that the characters in the Abrams universe are NOT the same as the characters we followed.

What's interesting is that in my opinion, the prime universe WAS wiped out, but Abrams can change that at any point with a story that establishes the existence of the prime universe, and acknowledging that Nero and Spock went to another universe and didn't just simply time travel.

I also have mixed feelings because I realize that it's 100 percent certain that if you follow the Abrams rules of time travel, then Kirk Prime did not die in Generations, and the death of Kirk Prime is for me, the dumbest and worst decision they ever made.

As for George & Lorraine's children all looking the same, sure you have to ignore that side of the genetic lottery for the sake of dramatic clarity but it's a small price to pay. Also, keep in mind that, apart from George & Dave, ALL of the men in the McFly family look like Michael J. Fox, so his family may be somewhat locked onto that genetic template at a quantum level.

More than that, while Marty changed the circumstances where George and Lorraine got together, he didn't make a significant change on the timing of it. Their first kiss happened basically at the same moment. George may have been a more confident man, but their patterns didn't change significantly, and there is no reason that the timing of conceiving their kids could have been altered.
 
At the end of the first movie, Marty had a truck, but the Marty who had a Truck was still Doc Brown's Lab Assistant, and he we to the past too, so there's a timeline with Two Marties that we didn't see.
 
Grandfather paradox stories can be fun, but if you do them you have to take the conceit that the butterfly effect doesn't exist, and you have to make the characters irresponsible enough to risk destroying the timeline just so they can have a fun history trip.
 
At the end of the first movie, Marty had a truck, but the Marty who had a Truck was still Doc Brown's Lab Assistant, and he we to the past too, so there's a timeline with Two Marties that we didn't see.

I feel like I once read a fan fiction on this topic and never found it again. But the basic idea was that the Marty that had the truck went back to 1955 and his adventure caused the original timeline--so essentially, the Martys switched places.
 
I like the point that by the end of the BTTF trilogy Marty actually knows very little about "his" life. His parents are no longer the parents he grew up with, his siblings are different, etc. There's a good chance things aren't going to go very well for him in this timeline.

That may be an argument that BTTF is actually a multiverse time travel story.

Indeed, without being able to check quantum signatures or such, how does one really know whether the timeline they end up in is the same as the timeline they started in?
 
I like the point that by the end of the BTTF trilogy Marty actually knows very little about "his" life. His parents are no longer the parents he grew up with, his siblings are different, etc. There's a good chance things aren't going to go very well for him in this timeline.

That may be an argument that BTTF is actually a multiverse time travel story.

Indeed, without being able to check quantum signatures or such, how does one really know whether the timeline they end up in is the same as the timeline they started in?

I’ve always gone with the notion that the changes caught up to Marty and that’s why he became the “are you calling me chicken?!” version. He wasn’t like that in the first film. Clearly they had a story they wanted to tell in parts 2 & 3 with Marty learning a lesson, but that mindset didn’t jibe with first movie Marty.
 
I’ve always gone with the notion that the changes caught up to Marty and that’s why he became the “are you calling me chicken?!” version. He wasn’t like that in the first film. Clearly they had a story they wanted to tell in parts 2 & 3 with Marty learning a lesson, but that mindset didn’t jibe with first movie Marty.

If that were the case though, he shouldn't remember his trip to 1955 at all.
 
In Chrono Trigger they prevented a person from being killed in the past by swapping him out with a doll at the last moment. They could do something similar, like your friend from the past died in an explosion and they never found the body, but did he die, or did you pull him back to the future at the last moment?
They did something similar in the current season of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D..
They know that a Sousa from Agent Carter was supposed to die right after they arrived in the past, but when the time came they switched him out for LMD Coulson, who they knew would survive the shooting that was supposed to kill Sousa, and brought Sousa with them when they left. So history recorded that he died, while he actually joined them in their time traveling.
Here's my take. Star Trek isn't real. After Enterprise and Nemesis, there's two storylines the audience can follow.

Abrams Trek: Time travel reboot on the day James T. Kirk was born. Everything after that has effectively been wiped out. Star Trek is rebooted via time travel.

CBS Trek: Discovery, set 10 years befote the original series. This show is trying to be part of the canon, a prequel to the original show, but also be a modern take on the future. For the most part, it works for me. My issues with the show are less with matching up with old Trek, and more with things just not making sense. Those long wierd airlock tubes instead of just beaming back and forth. Those sphere shuttle things flying through wndless tunnels that should have taken seconds to fly out of. The EMPTY SPACE when they should the turbolift network. It's mostly this crap I take issue with over a canon violation. There's over 700 episodes. They're gonna goof or retcon the canon now and then.

Picard, catching up about 20 years after Nemesis. This show feels like a follow up to 90's Trek.

Can't we just accept that the Abrams movies and CBS Trek are simply seperate storylines? Why do we have to reconcile them? That said, I did like how Picard acknowledged the Trek 09 movie with the supernova and destruction of Romulus.

This was meant to be a brief comment, it became a rant. Sorry, guys.
There are two more timelines you're overlooking, the novels, and Star Trek Online, both went off in very different directions after Nemesis.
This means that the prime timeline is wiped out, and would actually be consistent with the rules of time travel in Star Trek.



It's definitely an attempt to be in the original timeline, though everything we see is wiped out by Abrams. That doesn't mean it didn't happen the first time--it just means time travel changed it.



In some franchises, that works, but Star Trek has always meant to be one universe and canon. The inclusion of Nimoy in the Abrams movies is another attempt to show that was the intent.

If you follow the Roddenberry rules of time travel in Star Trek, then the only conclusion is that the prime universe was wiped out. The Abrams rules state otherwise, but a) the movie didn't establish that, and b) it means that the characters in the Abrams universe are NOT the same as the characters we followed.

What's interesting is that in my opinion, the prime universe WAS wiped out, but Abrams can change that at any point with a story that establishes the existence of the prime universe, and acknowledging that Nero and Spock went to another universe and didn't just simply time travel.

I also have mixed feelings because I realize that it's 100 percent certain that if you follow the Abrams rules of time travel, then Kirk Prime did not die in Generations, and the death of Kirk Prime is for me, the dumbest and worst decision they ever made.
Star Trek has had alternate timelines going all the way back to The Original Series, and there were never any consistent time travel rules for the Kelvin movies to break.
 
After a comment I read today, I think that Star Trek's mirror universe is the result of McCoy saving Edith Keeler. Germany winning WWII fits with the In A Mirror Darkly opening credits. Both shared a lot of similarities in how they differ from our reality. When Eric Bana's Romulan travels back in time, he does not come out in the prime timeline. That is why when Spock follows him he does not keep trying to set it right like the well established Spock would. It isn't as if Spock knows multiple ways of traveling in time to set things right. He doesn't try once he realizes it is a different parallel universe. The leading 0 on the Kelvin for instance. Discovery is yet another parallel universe. Discovery and Star Trek (2009) take place at about the same time. In the movie, we know that Starfleet uniforms had moved from the blue of Archer's time to the tri-color of Kirk's time quite some time earlier. Where in Discovery the blue has remained. Kelvin and the ships of Discovery have no similarity in their design. Plus in Discovery there is already connection to the Mirror universe (or a mirror universe) so the purity of that universe is suspect. The uniforms are the same blue as i Archer's time but with a metallic version of pilot TOS uniforms as accent. Plus the phaser is a hybrid of the pilot and series. And given the number of times the TOS crew traveled in time, who knows what changes they made and what side universes branched off. I haven't decided about Picard yet. So far one glimpse of the Discovery Enterprise is all there has been to break it from TOS and I'm willing to give it a pass for something so small. Otherwise it seem to be the universe Spock and Eric Bana's Romulan left.

How many times have the characters in Star Trek traveled in time and how many of those times might they have splintered the universe and caused a branch off.

That is not how I personally view time travel. I think there is a single timeline with no branches and when you travel in time you end up finding out that you had been there in the history you grew up with. So the paradox of going back and killing your grandfather would result in you killing the wrong person, that wasn't your real grandfather, or total failure of the mission with no change at all in the timeline. Anne McCaffrey wrote that into her Pern stories and I prefer that concept. It is neater. But I can't deny the appeal of the branching universe idea. And in Star Trek I feel it is necessary to address how they new Treks have branched off from in other aspects of Trek lore. It keeps everything connected, although you need a tree to connect them.
 
The back to the future comic suggested that the Delorean protected them for a while as time changed around them, from very minor changes to the timeline.

Not protective technology, more so that they pull a safety bubble along through with them, when they time travel that is eventually going to pop.
 
No time travel story withstands logical scrutiny. I take every time travel story at face value re: its “rules” and sit back, hoping to be entertained. Otherwise, I’ll always be disappointed with something about the story.
 
No time travel story withstands logical scrutiny. I take every time travel story at face value re: its “rules” and sit back, hoping to be entertained. Otherwise, I’ll always be disappointed with something about the story.

That's quitter talk.

2 thirds of the plant are killing each other over a sky genie, and you can't even justify Doctor Who's time cracks?
 
The back to the future comic suggested that the Delorean protected them for a while as time changed around them, from very minor changes to the timeline.

Not protective technology, more so that they pull a safety bubble along through with them, when they time travel that is eventually going to pop.

DS9 kind of used that trick in "Past Tense".
 
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