I'm not sure it is. I think he just has to be rich. The money doesn't have to go back any further than a generation or two
Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)
- Thread starter wayoung
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I'm not saying you couldn't re-imagine and re-contextualise, but what you'll end up with won't really be Bruce Wayne, it'll be someone else with the same name.
For example, for a privileged, wealthy white person to witness the murder of their parents in a senseless mugging it would be a traumatic and life changing event. For an African American, it'd be a Tuesday...and also "don't you dumb white motherfukka's know that place was called 'Crime Alley' for a reason? What did you think was going to happen when you parade through it with your fur coats and pearl necklaces?!" Black Thomas and Martha Wayne wouldn't have been that dumb.
Plus of course there's the thing where Batman's real superpower is "money". If that's doesn't scream "allegory for white privilege" I don't know what does.
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That comes across as painting the African-American experience with a pretty broad brush. This Bruce Wayne is still wealthy, privileged and somewhat insulated from "the real world". I think seeing one's parents gunned down would be a traumatic life changing experience for a child no matter what their race or economic status.
It only becomes "Crime Alley" after the Waynes' murder.
I obviously disagree with the idea that Bruce Wayne can't be black since I inadvertently started the whole convo
but there has been some recent push back against the idea of making such characters POC for essentially the same reason @Reverend has used. There was a big article the other day floating around progressive circles that the real reason James Bond has to stay white is because he's the ultimate symbol of English Imperialism and making him a POC "white washes" (heh) the entire imperialist nature of the British Empire, making POC seem like willing participants and not victims.
Again, I don't necessarily agree with the position, but it is an interesting and fair take.
but there has been some recent push back against the idea of making such characters POC for essentially the same reason @Reverend has used. There was a big article the other day floating around progressive circles that the real reason James Bond has to stay white is because he's the ultimate symbol of English Imperialism and making him a POC "white washes" (heh) the entire imperialist nature of the British Empire, making POC seem like willing participants and not victims.Again, I don't necessarily agree with the position, but it is an interesting and fair take.
The point wasn't that it wouldn't be traumatic for a rich black kid (of course it would) the point is that it would have an entirely different meaning and connotation to a black kid; even a rich, relatively privileged one.
As has been suggested over the last few months, I've made a point to take extra time to listen to and process what African Americans have to say on this subject. One of the common threads I noted was that the sense of "we're not ever truly safe in any situation". Regardless of whether they're rich or poor, vulnerable or privileged, it seems like that threat is a constant day-to-day psychological pressure that is always at least in their peripheral awareness. Shoring of growing up in a literal war-zone, that's not something that any western white person can ever truly comprehend because it's something you either live, or you don't and most of us just don't.
So when you apply this to Bruce Wayne; you change the entire social context of his trauma and the source of his righteous cause. For a black Bruce Wayne it wouldn't be some total unjust bolt from the blue, it'd be just a continuation of a pattern of injustice. These things matter when creating a character.
Maybe in 100 or 200 years it won't matter so much, but in the here and now I don't think Batman is the right character to appropriate the embodiment of Black Pain. That's more Luke Cage's beat.
That point seems to vary from depiction to depiction. Regardless; rich people walking through a dark alley at night is never a smart move in any city.
I obviously disagree with the idea that Bruce Wayne can't be black since I inadvertently started the whole convo
Again, I don't necessarily agree with the position, but it is an interesting and fair take.
Despite being British, I honestly don't have a lot of skin in the game (no pun intended) when it comes to Bond. Never been much of a fan and only have a passing familiarity with a handful of the movies over the years.
That said, I feel like the character is so inherently broad and open to interpretation in a modern context that I don't see the character as being intrinsically white, or indeed male.
Unlike Batman, Bond is more of a cipher and the storytellers can imbue them with whatever traits the story demands. Now if they were to go back and make an old school period Bond movie set in the actual time the books were set and/or written, then yes I think he would have to be white, male, misogynistic and a product of the old boy network. Anything else would feel disingenuous, inauthentic and a little like trying to rewrite history.
In a modern context; I have zero problem with Idris Elba, Thandie Newton or Dev Patel taking on the role of 007.
Not sure I buy the Imperialist take so much though. For one thing it's originally a cold war based story and the Empire didn't survive long post WWII, and one would assume the focus would have been on the Soviets. Now, enabling American Imperialism in the same period through supporting their proxy wars is a whole other thing and possibly a tad closer to the mark...
But it's not a dark alley in all versions. It often has several prominent street lights (used for dramatic effect in several takes) It's not a literal alley but a residential street in a nice neighborhood. The Wayne murders starts it's decline. The name only dates back to 1976 (Detective Comics 457)
All true, but I'm not sure that applies to Bruce Wayne's motivation to fight crime. It's still seeing his parents gunned down by a criminal.
The Waynes's murder is usually one of two things.
- A robbery gone wrong
- A hit because Thomas Wayne pissed off a mobster.
But would he have to be "the embodiment of Black Pain"? He can still be a child motivated by the senseless murder of his parents in a random act of violence.
Marvel's Batman, Nighthawk, has been black in his most recent incarnations.
In the vaaaaaaaast majority of retellings, it's crime alley, and in most of the others it's still a rough neighbourhood. Either way, this is hairsplitting and not really germane.
People get gunned down in the street every day (some even by criminals!) yet only Bruce Wayne dedicated his life dresses up like a bat and punches people in the face because of it. The unique combination of who Bruce Wayne is as a person and the circumstances of his trauma is what makes this Batman, Batman.
Just as Dick Grayson's combination of circumstances set him on the path to be Robin and Nightwing. (Yes, he can be Batman too, but that's a wholly different story that doesn't take place in a vacuum.) The point is, only Bruce Wayne is Bruce Wayne.
Doesn't matter. A black person being shot to death on an American street has an inherently different meaning than the same thing happening to a white person. Remember this isn't reality, it's storytelling and storytelling is all about perspective.
Tell you what, you go right ahead and try telling a story about a black kid in America witnessing their parents gunned down in front of them, who is then inspired becomes a vigilante and make it clear to everyone "look, I know they're all black and everything, but this has nothing to do with race, OK!?" and you just see how well that goes down...
Apples and oranges. Batman is arguably THE most prominent character DC has, indeed possibly the most prominent comic book character period. Nighthawk...is not. Nobody cares what colour Nighthawk's skin is because nobody outside of hardcore Marvel nerds even know Nighthawk exists. Nighthawk doesn't matter.
The more relevant point of comparison here is Spider-Man. They didn't make Peter Parker black, they (and by "they" I mean Bendis & Pichelli) created a new character and made him his own kind of Spider-Man. Whatever else one might say about how Miles has been treated since, that aspect was the smart way to go.
And he has to be white because.....?
A child losing both parents to a senseless act of violence right in front of his eyes is pretty universal.
Wayne's blackness would obviously figure into things. But I don't see why anyone would have a problem with the basic story beatsTell you what, you go right ahead and try telling a story about a black kid in America witnessing their parents gunned down in front of them, who is then inspired becomes a vigilante and make it clear to everyone "look, I know they're all black and everything, but this has nothing to do with race, OK!?" and you just see how well that goes down...
- Wealthy couple and their son return from a night at the theater
- The family is confronted by a criminal who demands their money and jewelry
- The criminal panics and kills the couple.
- The young boy, enraged vows vengeance on criminals
- He trains in science and martial arts.
- He uses his wealth to build weapons to use in his fight.
So Batman is too big to be black??
I think I've made my position clear and I'm not convinced by the counter arguments. So rather than hammer this one into the ground, let's just leave it at that, OK?
...And I won't dignify that implied accusation with a response.
It's not.
Well first off it wasn't an argument but a discussion. Secondly we've both already said we'll leave it be. So relax.
So in what is a crazy little bit of news, apparently 37% of Oscar followers are anticipating Chalamet will win an Oscar for his performance in Dune.
They don't state their criteria so I doubt it's a scientific poll but it shows how much faith people have in the film, even without a trailer!
https://www.goldderby.com/article/2020/timothee-chalamet-dune-best-actor-oscars-2021/amp/
They don't state their criteria so I doubt it's a scientific poll but it shows how much faith people have in the film, even without a trailer!
https://www.goldderby.com/article/2020/timothee-chalamet-dune-best-actor-oscars-2021/amp/
The role doesn’t really strike me as Oscar bait.
Shai-Hulud moves in mysterious ways.
