Do you believe Kai Winn redeemed herself?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In our timeline, at the time of the DS9 pilot, Bajor was utterly in shambles. Just having come through a 50 year occupation, the planet is deeply divided, we hear about famines, flood victims and war orphans. Parallels takes place 2-3 years later, and tells us that "Ever since the Bajorans overpowered the Cardassian Empire, they've become more and more aggressive". I don't think "our" Bajor could have gone from that shambled condition to defeating the Cardassian empire and even defying the Federation in that short amount of time. Also, Kai Winn could be aggressive, but never just for the sake of being aggressive, she would only do so if she thought she'd actually gain something by it. All that leads me to conclude that that "Parallels" Bajor must have been significantly stronger than the Bajor we see on DS9.

I got the distinct impression that in that universe, the Occupation happened in reverse - meaning, it was the Bajorans who invaded and occupied Cardassia.

@Nerys Ghemor rolls with that in her fanfic series "Catacombs of Oralius" (which I highly recommend).

 

[DonIago]

Yeah, I figure that if Winn had more political power, the roots of it must have gone back some time. Opaka was Kai for awhile before the series started.

Huh. Maybe Winn was in a position to know about Opaka's dirty little secret, that Bariel sabotaged himself protecting, and used it to become Kai that much sooner?

But, it's certainly possible if not likely that there were other changes in Bajoran history as well. Heck, maybe in that timeline the Pah-Wraiths never got kicked out of the wormhole.

 

[NCC-73515]

I thought about going with that joke, but I was trying to mix in Adami with it and I couldn't make it work.

All she wanted to be was a Winn-A, dami-t!

 

[Ocanain]

I don’t believe she redeemed herself at all. Every action she took to get closer to releasing the Pah-wraith I half-expected to be a ploy for the plot to redeem her. Every step though, was followed by the next and then the next. When at last she revealed a vulnerability for ‘The Sisko’ to exploit, I felt it was much more about self preservation than to make a moral choice.

When I recall the prior moment of panic she experienced when learning that the origin of her visions were the pah-wraiths and not the prophets, she was overcome that the offence would damn her but still couldn’t bring herself to follow Kiras sage advice. From that moment she only descended deeper. There was no redemption, just fear of destruction. Well that’s my two strips of latinum anyway.

 

[Mrs. Silvercrest]

A frustrating character who did anything for power. She had moments where she seems genuinely apologetic but always reverted back to her silent treacherous actions. It's why I love Kai and Dukat so much. I hated them but loved them at the same time. Very few villains make me laugh but these two never fail to crack a smile on my face when I watch them. Kai Winn desperately bowing down to the prophets in The Reckoning. Dukat claiming he has a big heart. I wish their deaths had been more satisfying. They died too quickly only suffering from burns within seconds.

Do you believe Kai Winn redeemed herself when she told the Emissary about the book resulting in Dukats death? Or was she only apologetic in that moment because she knew she fucked up? Is it possible for someone like Kai Winn to even have compassion and empathy without any benefits rewarded?

I think she had a very sad end. She was sorry at the end. But she ended up in the fire caves with the evil ones, and I wish she could have been forgiven and gone to the "good place". Well, that is what I think anyway. To me she was a very sad and lost person.

 

[Orphalesion]

I think she had a very sad end. She was sorry at the end. But she ended up in the fire caves with the evil ones, and I wish she could have been forgiven and gone to the "good place". Well, that is what I think anyway. To me she was a very sad and lost person.

If she was sorry at the end then only because she lost. She had enough chances to redeem herself.
Really that the character lacked any redeeming qualities at all (she wasn't even savvy or badass) is one of the few major issues I have with DS9.
They tried to throw her a bone on very rare occasions (that anecdote about her selling jewels to free prisoners) but it wasn't enough imho.

 

[DonIago]

I thought she was pretty savvy...she manipulated her followers and even Kira pretty well on more than one occasion.

It's hard to tell how much of her last-minute change-of-heart is genuine and how much of it is "I backed the losing side, crap!" since it is in fact her last-minute. I'd like to think if she hadn't died then we might have seen her resign the kai-ship and perhaps go into seclusion or such (or quite possibly willingly face charges), but it's certainly possible that once Dukat and Sisko were out of the picture her ambition would get the best of her again.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

I thought she was pretty savvy...she manipulated her followers and even Kira pretty well on more than one occasion.

It's hard to tell how much of her last-minute change-of-heart is genuine and how much of it is "I backed the losing side, crap!" since it is in fact her last-minute. I'd like to think if she hadn't died then we might have seen her resign the kai-ship and perhaps go into seclusion or such (or quite possibly willingly face charges), but it's certainly possible that once Dukat and Sisko were out of the picture her ambition would get the best of her again.

If she was the only survivor of the fire caves she would surely have spun it that she saved Bajor with the prophets and probably add that the emissarys dying words were that she was the new emissary

 

[DonIago]

Or maybe she wouldn't have. But we'll never know.

 

[Orphalesion]

I thought she was pretty savvy...she manipulated her followers and even Kira pretty well on more than one occasion.

It's hard to tell how much of her last-minute change-of-heart is genuine and how much of it is "I backed the losing side, crap!" since it is in fact her last-minute. I'd like to think if she hadn't died then we might have seen her resign the kai-ship and perhaps go into seclusion or such (or quite possibly willingly face charges), but it's certainly possible that once Dukat and Sisko were out of the picture her ambition would get the best of her again.

She seems decently savvy as long as it's about *gaining* power , but she seems very inept at wielding it. Look at the episode where she is in charge of negotiating with the Cardassians and brings about Bareil's demise because she keeps pulling him out of sickbay because she's not only scared to make any decision by herself, but also seems completely clueless about ramifications or processes or even the idea that somebody besides her might be able to lie.
She was absolutely pathetic in that episode.

But even if it's about gaining power, she's no Tywin Lannister or Olenna Tyrell.

If she was the only survivor of the fire caves she would surely have spun it that she saved Bajor with the prophets and probably add that the emissarys dying words were that she was the new emissary

Yeah pretty much as I wrote earlier in this thread: She'd make up a story about how she saved Bajor from the Ptah Wraits and Sisko helped a bit, or she might even say Sisko sided with the Ptah Wraits in the end and she defeated the "fallen emissary"

 

[JirinPanthosa]

She wasn't redeemed. She had one chance to redeem herself, when Kira advised her to step down as Kai. She did what she did because what she wanted was to put herself in charge of Bajor, not to destroy it. If instead the pah wraiths had chosen her as the messiah instead of Dukat as she believed, she wouldn't have had a change of heart.

 

[marlboro]

Does the fact that she referred to Ben as "Emissary" at the end have any significance? Does it indicate that she realized how misguided she had been? I like to think so.

I think she's a fascinating character. In my opinion her issues stem from the fact that she lives in an extremely religious society in which people routinely claim to have spoken with their gods or felt their influence at least. But not Winn. Think about how frustrating that would be. What would that do to your sense of self-worth? How envious would you be?

So what does she do? She spends her entire life trying to appear pious. Going through the motions without understanding the Prophets or their message in order to gain acceptance. Her desire to be one of the "chosen" is hopelessly mixed up with her envy and self-loathing. No matter how high she climbs in the religious hierarchy, it is never enough; she's never worthy.

Eventually, she concludes that the problem isn't with her - it's with the gods themselves.

Maybe, in the fire caves, for one brief moment, she figures some things out. Maybe not the Prophets, but about herself.



Or maybe she was just pissed at Dukat.

 

[Orphalesion]

If I'm not completely mistaken (it's been months since I finished my re-watch) then Kai Winn pretty much always addressed Sisko as "Emissary".
So no, her calling him by that title in the fire caves means nothing, there was no redemption.

 

[kkt]

Winn is more conscious of the outward trappings of Bajoran religion to make up for not really talking to the prophets herself. For instance, Kai Opaka wore colorful, civilian casual clothes all the time, while Winn wore the formal, showy, gold kai's robes all the time after she became Kai.

 

[Orphalesion]

Winn is more conscious of the outward trappings of Bajoran religion to make up for not really talking to the prophets herself. For instance, Kai Opaka wore colorful, civilian casual clothes all the time, while Winn wore the formal, showy, gold kai's robes all the time after she became Kai.

Opaka wore a Bajoran nun's habit, with a headdress and everything. And in a dream sequence Bareil saw himself in the same Kai robes Winn wore later.

 

[kkt]

I'm sure the various kais all wore the gold robes sometimes, maybe when the Council of Ministers meets. And in Bareil's dream as a symbol of the office. But Winn wore them every day.

 

[DonIago]

For all we know Winn's vestments had something to do with the particular sect of Bajoran religion to which she belonged as well. Even as a vedek she dressed differently from other vedeks we saw.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Winn is a GREAT character. She is the quintessential politician. In America she’d be the first female president. Either party, she’d win.

 

[XCV330]

I liked her character arc, but redemption wasn't in the cards for her by the end.

 

[Jellico]

I don’t think that she was redeemed. I don’t think redemption was intended for her as her story played out. That being said, I would have welcomed a real redemption for her. The actress and the character were great.