Wynn is a hotel
Do you believe Kai Winn redeemed herself?
- Thread starter PR109
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Wikipedia describes her as a cold heartless tyrant. So ya the same
It's hard for me to believe that Winn's character was entirely beyond redemption (which isn't to say she redeemed herself). I mean, she had enough followers to become a vedek and ultimately kai, so there must have been things she at least claimed to believe in that appealed to those who put her in power. I liked that the Terok Nor trilogy gave us a view of a younger Winn, and perhaps the series should have done some of the same, or at least shown Winn interacting with her followers. Give us more of an idea of how she could be appealing to people. Did she have genuine beliefs that were at least understandable, or was it all lip service?
I'd like to believe that at least some of the actions she undertook were ones she committed to believing they really were for the best for Bajor.
I'd like to believe that at least some of the actions she undertook were ones she committed to believing they really were for the best for Bajor.
Hitler?
FWIW, Louise Fletcher said that Winn got what she deserved in the end. (It's on Winn's Memory Alpha page.)
Well, we know Winn seemed to be against the Federation presence at Bajor, so that would certainly be one way to get followers, though I doubt she ever advocated for solving "The Federation Problem".
The situation in "Shakaar" was probably another situation where at least some of her supporters likely shared her views.
I believe she favored restoring the D'jarras as well. For awhile the majority of Bajor seemed to be willing to go along with that one.
In her first appearance she seems to be willing to put someone else up to murdering Bareil, but besides Bareil being a political opponent (one whom she'd later rely on during negotiations with the Cardassians), one wonders how their views actually differed.
I don't think she redeemed herself, no.
Just getting caught up in the power/money/influence is one thing, it's another thing entirely to turn your back on what you believe for the sake of power/money/influence. She made her choice, and she made it deliberately, and that's where you go past the point of redemption IMO.
If you mean by 'redeemed herself', if she truly was sorry for the things she had done and from now on would better her life, no, I don't think so. I think it was more the realisation that this time, she really had gone too far in her schemes and played with something she couldn't control as she thought she would be able to. Kai Winn simply wanted glory for herself and would step over some dead bodies to get it (figuratively), but I still don't think she wanted all of Bajor (or the universe) burning in flames for it, and once she realised that was about to happen and she wouldn't get her promised glory because the Pagh Wraiths would betray her as easily as she thought she could betray Dukat. She simply would join the Emissary in a temporary alliance once she realised Anjohl had sold her the sales pitch and his talk about the universe going up in flames was the real package.
But, you never could be entirely sure. However unlikely, It's always possible she truly was sorry and would have turned around. The only way to have known for sure would have been to see her survive, but she didn't.
But, you never could be entirely sure. However unlikely, It's always possible she truly was sorry and would have turned around. The only way to have known for sure would have been to see her survive, but she didn't.
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I didn't really feel for her in that moment, tbh. It was blatant manipulation of Kira's words so Winn could grasp a moral high ground she had no right to. It's like, "Lady, I don't think you lack courage because you didn't fight in the resistance, I think you lack courage because we saw you hiding behind Bareil's upright corpse a couple seasons back."
Opaka lives.
Winn was never the Kai.
Kira could have stopped Winn whenever she liked.
Winn was never the Kai.
Kira could have stopped Winn whenever she liked.
^ We don't know. Kai Opaka accepted her fate, and who's to say Kaihood couldn't transfer with a voluntary abdication (formal or not)? Perhaps all of Bajor knew Opaka was living on that desert moon ...
I care not to classify a man into such trifling labels as "good" or "evil"; he is either interesting or boring — and interesting this man was.
She had numerous opportunities to redeem herself, including the one where she went to Kira for advise and Kira suggested she step down as Kai to redeem herself, and she rejected or ignored all of them.
If she had survived her tumble with Dukat in the Fire Caves she would have gone right back to being her sanctimonious, self-serving self, I bet she would have even claimed that she was the one who defeated the Ptah Wraiths, with Sisko just providing some support (or maybe she would have even claimed she vanquished the Ptah Wraiths....and the false Emissary, who had switched over to their side)
If she had survived her tumble with Dukat in the Fire Caves she would have gone right back to being her sanctimonious, self-serving self, I bet she would have even claimed that she was the one who defeated the Ptah Wraiths, with Sisko just providing some support (or maybe she would have even claimed she vanquished the Ptah Wraiths....and the false Emissary, who had switched over to their side)
With the Dominion being a heavy on DS9; Winn's character became an after thought IMO, filler for episodes. I would've love to see a period piece of Winn during the occupation; there's such a complexity to that character in the 1st three seasons of the series, and should've been explored further.
I wonder whether the alternate timeline seen in "Parallels" in which the Bajorans were belligerent toward the Federation is one in which Winn held more political power and perhaps was even Kai in place of Opaka.
Thinking on it, she reminds me a bit of Umbridge in the Harry Potter books.
Thinking on it, she reminds me a bit of Umbridge in the Harry Potter books.
Winn was only concerned with Winn. Her helping Sisko defeat Dukat in the last moments of her life doesn't make up for everything she had done in the 7 years prior, especially selling out her people to their version of the devil.
Plus didn't she poison Dukat to claim the glory for herself and the Pah'Wraiths subsequently brought him back?
Plus didn't she poison Dukat to claim the glory for herself and the Pah'Wraiths subsequently brought him back?
It's an interesting thought and certainly a possibility. However I also think this would have been a universe with a lot more divergence from our timeline than 'just' Winn holding political power.
In our timeline, at the time of the DS9 pilot, Bajor was utterly in shambles. Just having come through a 50 year occupation, the planet is deeply divided, we hear about famines, flood victims and war orphans. Parallels takes place 2-3 years later, and tells us that "Ever since the Bajorans overpowered the Cardassian Empire, they've become more and more aggressive". I don't think "our" Bajor could have gone from that shambled condition to defeating the Cardassian empire and even defying the Federation in that short amount of time. Also, Kai Winn could be aggressive, but never just for the sake of being aggressive, she would only do so if she thought she'd actually gain something by it. All that leads me to conclude that that "Parallels" Bajor must have been significantly stronger than the Bajor we see on DS9.
I thought about going with that joke, but I was trying to mix in Adami with it and I couldn't make it work.
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