Does the Kelvin universe have its own mirror universe?

[TimeIsAPredator]

I think you meant multiverse at the end, and that each timeline is its own universe, but in any case, I don't agree anyhow...

We have the Primeverse and PrimeSpock and Nero time travelling into the past to "create" (or simply track-jump) into the Kelvinverse.

We have the MU, which has an unclear divergence point from the Primeverse, and MUSpock and Nero apparently time travelling into the past to create/track-jump into the MUKelvinverse.

As the divergence point of the MU predates the divergence point of the Kelvinverse, I don't see a reasonable way in which the Kelvin MU could be identical to the Prime MU...unless the MU was itself created due to time-travel...

You are right about the term multiverse but there would not be a mirror Spock to go back and create a mirror Kelvin and very little chance Nero is there to follow whoever goes back bit most likely no one does and they just let Romulus explode.

But there would be nothing to stop Kelvin Kirk from visiting TOS mirror anyway and still have Kelvin mirror stories but Kelvin mirror would not be Kelvin mirror until Kelvin Kirk touched it

 

[fireproof78]

You are right about the term multiverse but there would not be a mirror Spock to go back and create a mirror Kelvin and very little chance Nero is there to follow whoever goes back bit most likely no one does and they just let Romulus explode.

Why not?

The Mirror Universe is predicated upon mirrored events (Stamets both research spores but for different purposes, Kirk negotiating with the Halkans, Vulcans still arriving on Earth). Mirror Spock deciding to travel back in time and preserve the Empire or reform it from an earlier date makes sense. Or, deciding to use Red Matter as a weapon against the Romulans only to end up back in time as well.

Yeah, it's a huge coincidence but I don't see why it can't work within the Star Trek world.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Why not?

The Mirror Universe is predicated upon mirrored events (Stamets both research spores but for different purposes, Kirk negotiating with the Halkans, Vulcans still arriving on Earth). Mirror Spock deciding to travel back in time and preserve the Empire or reform it from an earlier date makes sense. Or, deciding to use Red Matter as a weapon against the Romulans only to end up back in time as well.

Yeah, it's a huge coincidence but I don't see why it can't work within the Star Trek world.

It could work as all possibilities are possible in an infinite multiverse but I dont think that makes a mirror Kelvin as in the mirror universe we know Spock is long gone. It would make a new timeline but it would not be prime, Kelvin or mirror but something new and just similar

Spock wouldnt need to go back in the mirror to make a story for a show as just having Kelvin Kirk go there would create a new mirror timeline

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

in the mirror universe we know Spock is long gone.

No, we don't.

 

[fireproof78]

mirror Kelvin as in the mirror universe we know Spock is long gone.

He is?

 

[DonIago]

Didn't we already cover this on page one of the thread?

 

[AmbreP]

What if the darker more aggressive star fleet in the kelvin timeline is because the MU it trying reintegrate and "echoes" are influencing events. That could also help explain the cannon destruction of star fleet 600-800 years later than TOS and Kelvin trek.....maybe.

 

[M'Sharak]

... mirror Kelvin as in the mirror universe we know Spock is long gone.

He is?

Prime MirrorSpock might not be long gone circa 2380s but, given the circumstances described by Intendant Kira

Spoiler: in "Crossover"

KIRA: The players are the same, but everyone seems to be playing different parts.
INTENDANT: You didn't seem to recognise the Alliance.
KIRA: No.
INTENDANT: Perhaps you'd recognise the name Kirk.
KIRA: I'm sorry, I don't.
INTENDANT: Interesting. On my side, Kirk is one the most famous names in our history. Almost a century ago, a Terran starship Captain named James Kirk accidentally exchanged places with his counterpart from your side due to a transporter accident. Our Terrans were barbarians then, but their Empire was strong. While your Kirk was on this side, he met a Vulcan named Spock and somehow had a profound influence on him. Afterwards, Spock rose to Commander in Chief of the Empire by preaching reforms, disarmament, peace. It was quite a remarkable turnabout for his people. Unfortunately for them, when Spock had completed all these reforms, his empire was no longer in any position to defend itself against us.
KIRA: Us?
INTENDANT: The Alliance. The historic coming together of the Klingons and the Cardassians.
KIRA: And Bajor is part of this Alliance?
INTENDANT: We'd been under Terran occupation for decades. When we were freed, we petitioned for entry and were accepted. We have become quite an influential power within the Alliance. Is it similar at all on your side?
KIRA: No. My Bajor is not so fortunate.

http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/443.htm

See also: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Spock_(mirror)

it seems far less likely that he would be in any position to attempt a time-travel mission to "fix" anything, nor would it be likely that the enslaved MirrorVulcans were the ones to develop red matter.

 

[fireproof78]

I figure Mirror Spock disappeared himself and cultivated power, kind of similar to Sarek in DSC.

 

[DonIago]

I generally go by the MU novels and associated literature for anything not shown onscreen, but if you discard that it's certainly possible, though I would think improbable, that MU Spock survived long enough to interact with Nero.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't see why it would be impossible. In one comic Spock didn't go forward with the reforms, using logic to project that he would die as a result. I see no issue with Mirror Spock working through possibilities and recognizing the threat of the Alliance and escaping, potentially hiding in Romulan space.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

In one comic Spock didn't go forward with the reforms

But if he makes that decision then it's not the mirror universe that we know but some other divergent one

 

[fireproof78]

But if he makes that decision then it's not the mirror universe that we know but some other divergent one

Obviously.

My point is that Mirror Spock would be capable of using logic to foresee possible end results. So, I see no reason to assume that Mirror Spock is dead.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Obviously.

My point is that Mirror Spock would be capable of using logic to foresee possible end results. So, I see no reason to assume that Mirror Spock is dead.

Ah now I get ya

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Obviously.

My point is that Mirror Spock would be capable of using logic to foresee possible end results.

Indeed.

(MAJOR SPOILER ahead)

Spoiler: novels

Non-canon though this may be, in the novelverse we learn that MU Spock did exactly that.

Not only did he listen to Kirk's advice about the inevitable fall of the Terran Empire, Spock actually planned for it to happen. All of his reforms were specifically designed to weaken the Empire and make it easier to be conquered. IIRC, he also intentionally antagonized the Klingons and Cardassians so they would ally with each other against the Empire.

Spock's ultimate endgame was to intentionally let the Empire fall (and be enslaved by the Klingon/Cardassian Alliance) so humanity would know what it's like to live in slavery and thus be inspired to create a better society.

 

[Nyotarules]

Indeed.

(MAJOR SPOILER ahead)

Spoiler: novels

Non-canon though this may be, in the novelverse we learn that MU Spock did exactly that.

Not only did he listen to Kirk's advice about the inevitable fall of the Terran Empire, Spock actually planned for it to happen. All of his reforms were specifically designed to weaken the Empire and make it easier to be conquered. IIRC, he also intentionally antagonized the Klingons and Cardassians so they would ally with each other against the Empire.

Spock's ultimate endgame was to intentionally let the Empire fall (and be enslaved by the Klingon/Cardassian Alliance) so humanity would know what it's like to live in slavery and thus be inspired to create a better society.

Rise like lions....fantastic novel!

 

[dupersuper]

The thing that bugs me about this is that if the divergence point for the Kelvinverse is Spock and Nero's time travel from the Primeverse, then in theory you'd need MU Spock and Nero to do the same to create an MU Kelvinverse...but we have no reason to believe that MU Spock lived long enough that he would have been able to do so.

He's in the IDW TNG mirror universe comics. It's implied that Data kills him, but we don't see it, and he's then in the second trilogy in the Return of Kirk novels set a few years later, so as of 8 or 10 years before the Romulan supernova he's alive in the EU.

 

[dupersuper]

Prime MirrorSpock might not be long gone circa 2380s but, given the circumstances described by Intendant Kira

Spoiler: in "Crossover"

KIRA: The players are the same, but everyone seems to be playing different parts.
INTENDANT: You didn't seem to recognise the Alliance.
KIRA: No.
INTENDANT: Perhaps you'd recognise the name Kirk.
KIRA: I'm sorry, I don't.
INTENDANT: Interesting. On my side, Kirk is one the most famous names in our history. Almost a century ago, a Terran starship Captain named James Kirk accidentally exchanged places with his counterpart from your side due to a transporter accident. Our Terrans were barbarians then, but their Empire was strong. While your Kirk was on this side, he met a Vulcan named Spock and somehow had a profound influence on him. Afterwards, Spock rose to Commander in Chief of the Empire by preaching reforms, disarmament, peace. It was quite a remarkable turnabout for his people. Unfortunately for them, when Spock had completed all these reforms, his empire was no longer in any position to defend itself against us.
KIRA: Us?
INTENDANT: The Alliance. The historic coming together of the Klingons and the Cardassians.
KIRA: And Bajor is part of this Alliance?
INTENDANT: We'd been under Terran occupation for decades. When we were freed, we petitioned for entry and were accepted. We have become quite an influential power within the Alliance. Is it similar at all on your side?
KIRA: No. My Bajor is not so fortunate.

http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/443.htm

See also: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Spock_(mirror)

it seems far less likely that he would be in any position to attempt a time-travel mission to "fix" anything, nor would it be likely that the enslaved MirrorVulcans were the ones to develop red matter.

That...doesn't say what happened to Spock.