Same reason why the whale probe came to Earth.
What are the implications of extra-galactic super AIs?
- Thread starter RAMA
- Start date
So glad to know at least you hope for it, its strange there are Trek fans who are rallying for something else other than peace.
I would like to think so. I feel like it is similar to the whale probe, with a desire to maintain contact and peace but willing to fight if needed. With the defense of the AI secured from Starfleet there may be less concern and worry.
Honestly, feels like most sentient beings really. Peace if possible, defense if necessary.
I think one benefit of Picard transferring his consciousness is allowing the Synths to become aware of how an organic mind works on a deeper level.
We don't really have much information about the super-AIs (they need a quickly-typed nickname.) It's possible the evil anti-organic mecha-Cthulu arms are also some sort of automatic response to the beacon while the actual AIs have gone off elsewhere, are otherwise occupied, or just hang out waiting for more detailed contact.
As far as I can tell the producers were definitely thinking of the Machine Federation as evil and super powerful, but it doesn't work well if they are.
When the crew says the Machine Federation has its own Prime Directive warp drive like contact condition, my impression was the Machine Federation is always looking for the the rise of artificial life. The Federation monitors 21st century style civilizations waiting for them to develop warp, as well as other types. So it follows that the Machine Federation is monitoring like the Federation, already here, and waiting for the artificial life to be systematically abused. Or, they are remotely monitoring, waiting for some sort of positronic mind critical mass, like how the Enterprise-D finds B-4, but at galactic distances.
In the above scenarios the Machine Federation isn't pure evil, in that the Machine Federation gives civilizations a chance, or they're just not omnipotent and waiting for mass production to become stable and obvious. They also have their own motives they enact on their own. The summoning device screws with that.
Summoning the Machine Federation is unreliable, depending on very precise events, mostly involving the low chance of encountering the one Admonition well in the entire galaxy. We know it is likely the only one due to the extraordinarily low chance of the star system's configuration being so unique others of its type should be abundantly obvious. The summoning device creates the portal through which the machines travel, further diminishing them by showing they are not monitoring and not capable of traveling intergalactic distances on their own. They back out once the portal is cut off, showing further they are incapable of traveling on their own.
If they're evil then being cut off wouldn't stop if they had the means of coming anyway. So they are either evil and incapable, or not evil and capable. The latter means something changed over the past few hundred thousand years, and why not, civilizations change, as do species. Presumably machine species too. Another alternative is the Admonition is one big set of lies, and the Machine Federation is just a group who wants to kill off the competition. They aren't saving machine species, they're wiping them out along with the civilizations who make them. They don't wipe out all life because that's too much work, and likely beyond their abilities, so they only target the competition as it crops up. As for the Admonition, that could have been a warning which the Machines managed to alter once they barely won.
So we have a Machine Federation who may or may not be pure evil, or may or may not want to kill only organic life but which may want to kill all competing life. They might be total liers, or they might have completely changed over time so they are no longer dangerous. In any case they may not be as powerful as we are lead to believe, but still plenty powerful.
When the crew says the Machine Federation has its own Prime Directive warp drive like contact condition, my impression was the Machine Federation is always looking for the the rise of artificial life. The Federation monitors 21st century style civilizations waiting for them to develop warp, as well as other types. So it follows that the Machine Federation is monitoring like the Federation, already here, and waiting for the artificial life to be systematically abused. Or, they are remotely monitoring, waiting for some sort of positronic mind critical mass, like how the Enterprise-D finds B-4, but at galactic distances.
In the above scenarios the Machine Federation isn't pure evil, in that the Machine Federation gives civilizations a chance, or they're just not omnipotent and waiting for mass production to become stable and obvious. They also have their own motives they enact on their own. The summoning device screws with that.
Summoning the Machine Federation is unreliable, depending on very precise events, mostly involving the low chance of encountering the one Admonition well in the entire galaxy. We know it is likely the only one due to the extraordinarily low chance of the star system's configuration being so unique others of its type should be abundantly obvious. The summoning device creates the portal through which the machines travel, further diminishing them by showing they are not monitoring and not capable of traveling intergalactic distances on their own. They back out once the portal is cut off, showing further they are incapable of traveling on their own.
If they're evil then being cut off wouldn't stop if they had the means of coming anyway. So they are either evil and incapable, or not evil and capable. The latter means something changed over the past few hundred thousand years, and why not, civilizations change, as do species. Presumably machine species too. Another alternative is the Admonition is one big set of lies, and the Machine Federation is just a group who wants to kill off the competition. They aren't saving machine species, they're wiping them out along with the civilizations who make them. They don't wipe out all life because that's too much work, and likely beyond their abilities, so they only target the competition as it crops up. As for the Admonition, that could have been a warning which the Machines managed to alter once they barely won.
So we have a Machine Federation who may or may not be pure evil, or may or may not want to kill only organic life but which may want to kill all competing life. They might be total liers, or they might have completely changed over time so they are no longer dangerous. In any case they may not be as powerful as we are lead to believe, but still plenty powerful.
I can't say I'm a big fan of this sort of conflict oriented biological intelligence vs artificial intelligence storyline mostly because there's nothing new here. Colossus the Forbin Project,Terminator, nuBSG, and countless others have already gone down this road before. Why should the relationship always be antagonistic to the point where these Extra Galactic AIs have to set up beacons for the inevitable future synthetic victims of their creators?
I'd like to think there'd be more variety in terms of how different species/races would interact with such creations. How would AIs even understand mortality or danger? If your consciousness is copyable and uploadable do you even have the same understanding or perspective about life and the universe? That's part of the reason I didn't much care for the story element of having Data want to 'die' - it just didn't really make sense to me (other than a way for Brent Spiner to lay that character to rest).
I'd like to think there'd be more variety in terms of how different species/races would interact with such creations. How would AIs even understand mortality or danger? If your consciousness is copyable and uploadable do you even have the same understanding or perspective about life and the universe? That's part of the reason I didn't much care for the story element of having Data want to 'die' - it just didn't really make sense to me (other than a way for Brent Spiner to lay that character to rest).
Fear of a new creation is a pretty fundamental storyline, going back to Frankenstein's Monster. I personally like Picard because it starts out as antagonistic, as embodied by the Zhat Vash, and moves towards mutual understanding and laying out a potential cooperative relationship in the future. I think that already sets it apart from BSG or Terminator. Heck, it goes against the grain of past Trek stories like "What Little Girls are Made of" "The Ultimate Computer," "The Changeling," "The Motion Picture," The Exo-comps in TNG, Wesley's nanites in TNG, and the holograms in various VOY stories. At each point there is a conflict because one side views the other as a danger to their continued existence.
Picard is honestly at a point where there could be more mutual understanding than before.
Yes, I'm aware of the supposed extra-galactic nature, though only one of those was actually confirmed, the rest was speculation on their part. None of those extra-galactic foes had any real lasting implications like these AIs would seem to be.
I agree that there would be inconsistencies with past Trek if they ever appeared again. I'm guessing if they did ot respond to V'Ger or other AIs it was because they are not so omniscient as to be aware at all times of AI springing up. After all, the universe is a big place.
RAMA
I agree that there would be inconsistencies with past Trek if they ever appeared again. I'm guessing if they did ot respond to V'Ger or other AIs it was because they are not so omniscient as to be aware at all times of AI springing up. After all, the universe is a big place.
RAMA
My speculation is based on the idea that "looks" are not always obvious...what if the centipede-like form was simply the most efficient for disembodied beings to manifest themselves to manipulate matter? It looks scary to us, but useful to them.
RAMA
RAMA
There aren’t any implications because TPTB didn’t do anything interesting beyond the generic AI is evil crap.
Extremely simplistic actually, since we don't know if they'll be used in season 2 at all, and because....
Well, season 1 was all about taking the rights of AI seriously and Picard actually becoming one!!
RAMA
Picard was already 100% for AI rights. It might have been more interesting if they were forced to use the golem to save General Oh. Then she would be the thing she feared most.
Yes, but imagine actually putting your money where your mouth is? That's what Picard did. Plus almost everyone else seemed to be FOR the ban, and an entire society (the Roms) were against AI in any way.
If you go by modern reaction, even with stories like Picard, and a handful of others, lots of people are still uncomfortable with even bringing the topic up. Some are totally for their wishful thinking it will all simply go away (as sometimes evidenced on this BBS).
RAMA
If you go by modern reaction, even with stories like Picard, and a handful of others, lots of people are still uncomfortable with even bringing the topic up. Some are totally for their wishful thinking it will all simply go away (as sometimes evidenced on this BBS).
RAMA
Picard didn't make the choice though, the other three did. Definitely an interesting turn of events that I hope they don't ignore in S2.
True, but how many stories have we seen where those transformed into automatons/AI/artificial beings react with horror and what no part of it or go crazy? Picard asks some questions, and then goes along with it. That by default becomes the POV of the show itself.
The good part...the lastest Akiva Goldsman interview suggests Picard getting used to his new state will be part of season 2.
RAMA
The good part...the lastest Akiva Goldsman interview suggests Picard getting used to his new state will be part of season 2.
RAMA
That's why I thought putting Oh in the golem would have been more dramatic. Would she have gone crazy(er)? Would she have had to turn in her Zhat Vash membership badge? Of course that would have required more time to explore than a short season would allow.
What's amazing is that this is the same approach as in TOS. We had androids all over the place there including copies of real people. While remarkable it was not so remarkable that the tech was considered to require further comment. I think Picard is taking a similar approach.
