If I wanted to watch a show with flawed early 21st century humans I would watch something else not star trek. The characters on Picard come off as not enlightened at all. You obviously missed the point of Trek.
Production Quality Of Picard
- Thread starter TRON JA307020
- Start date
That humans are flawed but can rise above them?
"We are killers but we're not going to kill today."
"If we are going to be damned let us be damned for what we really all."
"It's easy to be a saint in paradise."
" Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight."
Yup, it's a mystery how humans can be awful in Star Trek...
ETA: The most enlightened moment...
"We are killers but we're not going to kill today."
"If we are going to be damned let us be damned for what we really all."
"It's easy to be a saint in paradise."
" Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight."
Yup, it's a mystery how humans can be awful in Star Trek...
ETA: The most enlightened moment...
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No I think you miss the point. Star Trek is about the human condition. Sometimes that is explored through aliens but more often than not it is explored through the main characters who are not humans who are perfect but humans who are constantly working to better themselves with varying degrees of success.
So Starfleet keeping the Cardassian peace treaty intact was giving in to intolerance?
There was no legal reason to abort the Romulan evacuation, but there was one for the DMZ.
Barclay never lost a kid or job over his obsessions, and wasn't depressed. Ro went to fight for her own people. None of them can be compared to Raffi.
Show me where Picard screamed and was butchered on screen. All we saw was a silent tear. His torture by Madred was bloodless, and he reclaimed his humanity after the Borg assimilation and kept his humanity during torture.
Which of those killed millions, and made millions suffer? What colony was left to die?
Starfleet outright condoned genocide of the Founders (although Section 31 started the plot independently, Starfleet did nothing to stop it once it found out). They also wanted Picard to genocide the Borg. Actively causing genocide is worse than sitting back and doing nothing (or, more accurately, little) to stop mass death in another race. Particularly because we know that the Federation already believes that it's the morally right thing to sit back and do nothing to save a species from destruction, provided it is pre-warp.
The Federation abandoned their own colonists along the DMZ so why are you surprised that they decided to abandon a 300 year old enemy? The Federation had no right to kick people out of their homes and have the arrogance to expect the colonists to just accept their displacement for the greater good. Those worlds were never Cardassian territory so what legal reason was there?
I would argue that Barclay was severely depressed. Anxiety and Depression are generally co-morbid and Barclay displayed both. How did the best of humanity respond to Barclay? By giving him a cruel nick name, treating him like he was a nobody, bullying him and continually being dismissive of his ability to contribute. Sure they ended up liking him, but he had to prove himself to the elite clique of Starfleet liek it was fucking highschool.
There was no legal reason to abort the Romulan evacuation from a massive disaster, but there was a treaty that required handing over some planets to the Cardassians. Territories are redefined by treaties. The difference is clear.
The Dominion War was on DS9, not TNG. Nechayev ordered the destruction of the Borg, but it never happened.
14 member worlds threatened to secede from the Federation and potentially destabilise it at a time when the Federation was potentially facing a synthetic rebellion, they had also lost one of their key ship building facilities. That is plenty of reason for Starfleet to pull out of rescuing the Romulans.
So it's okay for the Federation to abandon and displace their own people as long it's legal for them to do so? If that is what you believe then I really don't think you should be arguing that the Federation is a moral entity, because it clearly isn't.
Now you're just picking at straws. The starfleet we saw doing terrible things in DS9 is the same Starfleet as TNG. The fact that Starfleet ordered a genocide against the Borg is proof enough that the Federation is not as moral as you claim it to be, regardless of whether the genocide happened or not.
Sure there was. The Federation not splintering.
Yes, Barclay almost lost his job. Ro resigned because Starfleet wasn't doing right by her people.
Ok, this is a poor argument. Torture being bloodless does not make it less than torture. Same with the poor crewman who had an arm removed in First Contact. Picard's personal horror is explored through "Family" and "First Contact" and now Picard.
No blood means torture is totally OK? No, not even a little bit.
The colonists in the DMZ were pretty much abandoned by the Federation even as the Cardassians used military assets against them. Who knows how many lives were lost? The failed colony that Yar grew up on is the same question-how many people died because there was general lawlessness and rape gangs? If that colony in "Up the Long Latter" had not agreed to Picard's demands then that colony would have been lost. And Picard was OK with that.
No one of the above excuses the behavior of Starfleet. But, I do not see the more dystopic bent that others do. At this point, I'll simply leave at agree to disagree.
It was either the destruction of the borg or the destruction of the human race and the federation. The borg at the time were attempting to assimilate all of earth and all of the federation would have been next. At the time the federation thought it was the only way out. Their hand was being forced by the borg and they were given no choice.
Sounds very enlightened and nothing like 21st century humans.
So enlightenment to you would have been to let the borg assimilate earth and all the federation worlds?
Not at all. I just think it is a very 21st century human reaction. Actually, just a human reaction-no enlightenment required.
It was at the time the only reaction to the survival of thousand of species an 100s of billions perhaps trillions of lives. The borg were a amalgam of thousands of assimilated species that were basically assimilated beyond their will. They didn't ask for it or want it. They were no longer individuals but one mind. The federation had to weigh what the morality would be to let the borg live and continue it's path of destruction or destroy it. The immoral decision would have been to let them continue to destroy and create more mindless automatons.
Does this mean Picard and the crew of the flagship made the immoral choice, in failing to act decisively?
reason, but they weren't forced to. dmz = forced to by treaty. rommies = chose to cause inconvenient.
the original claim was that pic and tng (not ds9) are just the same in terms of utopian/dystopianness.
see above.
barclay saved the ship, and later saved voyager.
fc is darker than tng, sure. individual tng episodes were as well. still, "family" was more utopian than "stardust". severe physical injuries are worse than 'just pain'.
exactly. we don't know how many were killed by the cardassians and on yar's world. but we know millions were killed by the nova and mars attack. the clone colony would've collapsed because of their genetic problems if they had chosen to not agree, as you say. see the difference?
They decided to try and give the borg their individuality back instead by sending a changed Hugh back. It backfired and the borg kept assimilating as we see by stfc.
Honestly, no.
I completely disagree and at this point it is clear we will not agree. There is this parsing of hairs that simply is no longer good discussion.
I don't see Picard as more dystopian. The Federation made a decision that was wrong but they have made decisions that have impacted lives and cost lives in the past. Freecloud is not in the Federation and so is not a reflection of Federation life.
Which is my point. The crew of the Enterprise knew better than most how dangerous the Borg are. Picard himself was obviously acutely aware of it. They had a chance to deal their most threatening enemy a deadly blow, and didn't take it, in favour of a far more hopeful plan.
Lack of utopia =/= dystopia.
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