The Stargate Franchise - A First Timer's Watchthrough

[Astra]

Sure, but it’s been a few episodes since The Shroud and the closest we got to an Ori update was a Jaffa episode.

I can't believe it took me this long to realize why I am not as much on board with those last seasons. If you are invested in the ongoing plotline and want answers which you will get once in a while, then you're good. But if you are not, each episode seems to be the same, them running around the galaxy looking for a super weapon and it got old really fast.

I really do prefer the earlier seasons where they went to a planet, found a problem, and after much talking found a solution and got home. I loved especially when Jack and Daniel had different opinions, and I could see both their points and agree and then they found a solution that both could live with. These characters changed over the series, Daniel became a bit more military while Jack became a bit less, and so these earlier talks about what's right and what's wrong vanished.

The earlier seasons still had ongoing plotlines in the back, and recurring storylines and characters, but I think the mixture was better. Even the standalone stories in the later seasons are mostly boring.

And I really was ready to give it a chance. Despite being a Jack fan mostly, I loved everyone of the show and so far the casting guys also had made good choices with all the guest actors they brought in. Everyone brought something to the table and you cared about those characters.

Thank you Tomalak for this ride, and for reminding me of all the good times. I really should do a rewatch, it's been way too long. Do you plan to watch Universe as well? Jack does turn up there a couple of times too (and a few others to boost the rates), but by then you could see he had no idea what he even was doing there. Pretty sad to see.

I loved that line in "200" about the surprise appearance of a character that gets spoiled in the previews. That would have been a really nice surprise had they kept that secret.

 

[tomalak301]

Thank you Tomalak for this ride, and for reminding me of all the good times. I really should do a rewatch, it's been way too long. Do you plan to watch Universe as well? Jack does turn up there a couple of times too (and a few others to boost the rates), but by then you could see he had no idea what he even was doing there. Pretty sad to see.

I'm planning to finish Atlantis and watch Universe (And Continuum). I'm getting a little hesitant on Origins as that has seemed to be universally panned. I might still see it though but Atlantis and Universe are on Amazon Prime so it's easier.

Thanks for the great reviews tomalak301, It is such a shame we didn't get a sequel to SG1.

You guys are welcome. I enjoyed doing this last year with Buffy and I'm enjoying it this year with Stargate. It's been fun to dive into another franchise, and Stargate was long enough that it would actually take a while to do. It's been awesome having the interaction with you guys as well. In fact I have been going through the spoilers (Got to page 30) and it's amazing to see how this thread has developed over the last couple of months. It's like a trip down memory lane reading what at the time were spoilers but now is basically common knowledge. One thing I'm looking forward to in a rewatch whenever I do it is finding the retcons, like how the Goa'uld were developed, the Zat Guns, stuff like that.

 

[DonIago]

Other than the Replicators, the main thing that bothered me about "Ark of Truth" was that SG-1 wins by brainwashing people...and while Daniel brings that point up, it's discarded just as quickly as it's raised.

 

[tomalak301]

Other than the Replicators, the main thing that bothered me about "Ark of Truth" was that SG-1 wins by brainwashing people...and while Daniel brings that point up, it's discarded just as quickly as it's raised.

I did mention this movie being non-stop plot all the way through but yeah they didn't really talk about the ethical meanings behind the ark. Of course the Ori were brainwashing people already, so could one say that using the arc was just undoing the damage?

 

[Romulan_spy]

Other than the Replicators, the main thing that bothered me about "Ark of Truth" was that SG-1 wins by brainwashing people...and while Daniel brings that point up, it's discarded just as quickly as it's raised.

Is the Ark brainwashing or removing existing brainwashing? I guess it depends on what you think the truth is. If you think the truth is that the Ori are gods who were right, then I guess the Ark was imposing its own form of brainwashing. But if you believe that the Ori are evil gods who don't deserve worship, then the Ark was simply exposing the truth and undoing the brainwashing of the Ori.

I do think that the movie expects the audience to agree with the decision to use the ark because we are expected to agree that the Ark is setting people free rather than brainwashing. Hence the scene with the Doci looking into the Ark and weeping and saying "I was blind but now I see".

Imagine if the Ori were Nazis. If there was a device that could have magically convinced all the nazis in WW2 to reject the ideology of nazism, would we see it as brainwashing or as simply exposing them to the truth? You'd probably see it is as revealing the truth and as a good thing to convince them to give up nazism.

 

[Romulan_spy]

You guys are welcome. I enjoyed doing this last year with Buffy and I'm enjoying it this year with Stargate. It's been fun to dive into another franchise, and Stargate was long enough that it would actually take a while to do. It's been awesome having the interaction with you guys as well. In fact I have been going through the spoilers (Got to page 30) and it's amazing to see how this thread has developed over the last couple of months. It's like a trip down memory lane reading what at the time were spoilers but now is basically common knowledge. One thing I'm looking forward to in a rewatch whenever I do it is finding the retcons, like how the Goa'uld were developed, the Zat Guns, stuff like that.

@tomalak301 Yes, I wanted to say thank you as well for doing this thread. I've really enjoyed your perspective on SG1, one of my all-time favorite TV shows. I look forward to you finishing Atlantis. You definitely have some really cool stuff in Atlantis to look forward to.

 

[The Wormhole]

Now, this is the pandemic episode of Stargate. Tag yourself, I'm Carter and the cello. Or, honestly, Daniel and the Asgard database.

I'm Teal'c. Even when all this is said and done, I'll still bear the scars. With maybe a bit of Mitchell tearing apart the room thrown in.

So we have this guy from the IOA come on to oversee this mission, and then he takes matters into his own hands by doing the most stupid thing possible?

The worst part is, he really was acting under instructions from the IOA. Which to be honest, is surprising that after a stunt like that the IOA wasn't disbanded.

hey had some extra time and money to play with, so there was an indulgence in spectacle, and of doing things they'd wanted to do before but couldn't, or felt they could do better, which I think is a big reason for the Replicator subplot in "Ark," or, for that matter, pretty much everything that happens in "Continuum."

Continuum in many ways feels like the things they wanted to do in Lost City back when that was being planned as a theatrical movie.

Other than the Replicators, the main thing that bothered me about "Ark of Truth" was that SG-1 wins by brainwashing people...and while Daniel brings that point up, it's discarded just as quickly as it's raised.

I like a "plots described badly" take on that I read somewhere. "The Ancients create a device which can brainwash people into believing the Ori aren't gods but refuse to use it because brainwashing people is wrong. But knowing the threat the Ori pose and that the device could lead to their beneficial defeat, they leave the device buried so that it may be found by someone with less morals than they. So enters the US military..."

 

[bigdaddy]

Where the movie fails for me though is bringing back the Replicators. I'm still going to keep an open mind on the Replicators on Atlantis, but when they were revealed here, I kinda rolled my eyes.

The god damn replicators. That's what I was bitching about, it's so stupid. That a two hour movie was supposed to be the plot for a 20 episode season and they wasted their time on that garbage? It's even lamer than the dragon.

 

[DonIago]

Is the Ark brainwashing or removing existing brainwashing? I guess it depends on what you think the truth is. If you think the truth is that the Ori are gods who were right, then I guess the Ark was imposing its own form of brainwashing. But if you believe that the Ori are evil gods who don't deserve worship, then the Ark was simply exposing the truth and undoing the brainwashing of the Ori.

I do think that the movie expects the audience to agree with the decision to use the ark because we are expected to agree that the Ark is setting people free rather than brainwashing. Hence the scene with the Doci looking into the Ark and weeping and saying "I was blind but now I see".

Imagine if the Ori were Nazis. If there was a device that could have magically convinced all the nazis in WW2 to reject the ideology of nazism, would we see it as brainwashing or as simply exposing them to the truth? You'd probably see it is as revealing the truth and as a good thing to convince them to give up nazism.

I thought the film was pretty clear that the Ark forces people to believe things (assuming it's multi-purpose, which seems...likely?), and in this case, it's forcing people to believe that the Ori are not gods, whether or not they could have come around to believing that on their own.

I have real trouble with the idea of forcing people to believe something...even something that you "know" to be true...and I wish SG-1 had come up with an option that involved letting people come to the truth on their own, instead of a solution that was essentially worthy of the Ori themselves...who I would note may have coerced people into believing in them, but never entirely took away free will.

Desperate times, desperate measures and all, but even a brief postscript acknowledging what they'd done would have been nice.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I thought the film was pretty clear that the Ark forces people to believe things (assuming it's multi-purpose, which seems...likely?), and in this case, it's forcing people to believe that the Ori are not gods, whether or not they could have come around to believing that on their own.

I have real trouble with the idea of forcing people to believe something...even something that you "know" to be true...and I wish SG-1 had come up with an option that involved letting people come to the truth on their own, instead of a solution that was essentially worthy of the Ori themselves...who I would note may have coerced people into believing in them, but never entirely took away free will.

Desperate times, desperate measures and all, but even a brief postscript acknowledging what they'd done would have been nice.

Yeah, it probably would have been great if the movie had explored some of these ideas more. I do think that the scene with the Doci saying "Have mercy. I was blind but now I see" could be interpreted as the Ark simply opening their eyes to the truth, rather than forcing a truth upon them against their will.

 

[David cgc]

Other than the Replicators, the main thing that bothered me about "Ark of Truth" was that SG-1 wins by brainwashing people...and while Daniel brings that point up, it's discarded just as quickly as it's raised.

Apparently, there was a deleted scene where SG-1 heisted into Area 51 and destroyed the Ark, but it was trimmed for fear of the movie getting all Return-of-the-King and having too many endings. Though I think the only source for that is a convention talk by Michael Shanks, so the exactly what the sequence was, or how long it would've taken, is a mystery.

 

[tomalak301]

I like a "plots described badly" take on that I read somewhere. "The Ancients create a device which can brainwash people into believing the Ori aren't gods but refuse to use it because brainwashing people is wrong. But knowing the threat the Ori pose and that the device could lead to their beneficial defeat, they leave the device buried so that it may be found by someone with less morals than they. So enters the US military..."

That's actually a really good plot synopsis for this movie.

 

[tomalak301]

Yeah, it probably would have been great if the movie had explored some of these ideas more. I do think that the scene with the Doci saying "Have mercy. I was blind but now I see" could be interpreted as the Ark simply opening their eyes to the truth, rather than forcing a truth upon them against their will.

This is where not having the replicator story would have been best. Ok, they wanted an action element. They could have just used the armies of the Ori then. This was an hour and 40 minute movie, and the ark of truth is pretty much the main storyline. We could have had those morality discussions, the movie could have had more heart and characterizations, and Baccarin could have been in it more. I was surprised how little of Adria there was. The whole Ancient/Ori thing could have made up the entire second half of the movie.

My thoughts on the ark was just wondering how using it against the Ori was considering a bad thing. The Ori already brainwashed people to believe in them. The Ark just undid that brainwashing, and stopped a crusade from destroying an entire galaxy. I just think in this case the ends justify the means. I do think they should have destroyed it though instead of going to Area 51. So they want to have it put in the hands of the same group of people who just unleashed replicators on its own people? Yeah that should go over well.

 

[Jayson1]

I've also enjoyed this thread and can't wait to see what next show is picked once tomalak301 has gotten through all the Stargate stuff.


Jason

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure this is by any means a good idea, but for a moment just now I imagined that the Ark of Truth could instead be used to de-ascend the Ori and reveal that they weren't any more special than anyone else...whether people wanted to continue to worship them at that point would be their choice (think of them becoming like the Ancients from "The Return")...and that one of the plot elements near the end of the movie would involve discussions of how to help out a galaxy that just had their gods taken away from them...I never considered that last point before, but now that I am, I do wonder what happened to that galaxy after the Ori were wiped out.

 

[Romulan_spy]

My thoughts on the ark was just wondering how using it against the Ori was considering a bad thing. The Ori already brainwashed people to believe in them. The Ark just undid that brainwashing, and stopped a crusade from destroying an entire galaxy. I just think in this case the ends justify the means. I do think they should have destroyed it though instead of going to Area 51. So they want to have it put in the hands of the same group of people who just unleashed replicators on its own people? Yeah that should go over well.

Rewatching the movie, Daniel specifically says "We think the Ark may be capable of brainwashing people to believe whatever it's programmed to make them believe."

So the movie is pretty clear that the Ark of Truth brainwashes people. Yes, it undoes the Ori brainwashing but it does it by brainwashing people into believing the opposite. It takes away they ability to come to a belief system on their own. In the beginning of the movie, the Alterans make the argument for why using the Ark would be wrong:

ALTERAN WOMAN: Is forced indoctrination really the answer? You would deny the Ori the very essence of self. It is no different than the murder they propose.
ALTERAN MAN: The only moral way to change someone's mind—make them see the truth, as you put it—is to present evidence.
ALTERAN WOMAN TWO: We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, through argument and debate, but, most of all, freedom of will. I will not compromise the fundamental tenants of my devotion in order to preserve it.

(On a side note: I think this exchange sheds some light into the strict rule of non-interference of the ascended beings. Remember the ascended beings are the same ancients who held this view. At their core, they always believed in respecting free will and self-determination. They see any interference as a violation of someone else's right to self-determination. And considering that they refused to use the Ark to stop the Ori, it should not be surprising that they still refused to stop the Ori even after being ascended. They were being true to their core values.)

But you are right that the counter argument is that the ends justify the means in this case because the Ori are evil and are waging war against the galaxy that will cost millions if not billions of lives, not to mention that if the Ori win, they will enslave and brainwash the entire galaxy. So yeah, stopping that from happening is the right thing to do. I think my nazi analogy is pretty spot on. If we had the ability in WW2 to brainwash all Germans into rejecting nazi beliefs and thus end WW2, would we do it? Would not ending WW2 and ending the atrocities like the Holocaust justify using such a weapon? I think most people would say yes.

 

[Romulan_spy]

There is a "200" joke in Ark of Truth. When Mitchell sits int the captain's chair on the Odyssey, he says "weapons to maximum" which is the same line that they make fun of in the episode "200".

 

[fireproof78]

Where the movie fails for me though is bringing back the Replicators.

To that end, I think this movie would have been so much better if they had stuck with the Ark of Truth story and not had the replicators at all. They could have actually used the Stargate more (They only used it for the Supergate, which was disappointing) and we could have had more with Morgan and Adria.

Sums up my feelings quite succinctly. The Replicators were completely unnecessary.

 

[JD]

I thought the film was pretty clear that the Ark forces people to believe things (assuming it's multi-purpose, which seems...likely?), and in this case, it's forcing people to believe that the Ori are not gods, whether or not they could have come around to believing that on their own.

I have real trouble with the idea of forcing people to believe something...even something that you "know" to be true...and I wish SG-1 had come up with an option that involved letting people come to the truth on their own, instead of a solution that was essentially worthy of the Ori themselves...who I would note may have coerced people into believing in them, but never entirely took away free will.

Desperate times, desperate measures and all, but even a brief postscript acknowledging what they'd done would have been nice.

Yeah, like I said before, that was my biggest issue with Ark of Truth too. They really should have spent a lot more time dealing with those issues surrounding the use of the Ark. It wasn't enough to ruin the movie for me, but it definitely knocked it down a few points. The Replicator stuff knocked it down another point or two, but I don't seem to hate that stuff as much as a lot of you seem to.
Continuum was definitely the better of the two SG-1 movies.
Just as in case anybody is interested, the original Stargate movie is streaming for free on Amazon Prime Video.

 

[bigdaddy]

Sums up my feelings quite succinctly. The Replicators were completely unnecessary.

The replicators are to Stargate as the Borg are to Star Trek. They just keep coming back and getting lamer each and every time.