ST canon is inconsistent and contradictory.

[Replica Picard]

More that his character was basically assassinated in to a liar and a manipulator, and that these supposed good Jedi who were the guardians of peace and justice just completely suck and the only way they felt they could correct their mistake was to lie.

Not to be a downer, but, "you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain." The Jedi had been the guardians of the Republic for something like 20,000 years. That's a mighty long time to be the purest noble souls the whole time, and it's hardly surprising that the ones that survived would be making compromises toward the end. I just think it makes him and Yoda more interesting. They're not the bad guys, but they're not perfect. Perfect is boring.

 

[Replica Picard]

Oh, and sorry for the double post, but even in the very first movie, Obi-Wan mindscrews a stormtrooper and then tells Luke "don't ever do that". His willingness to play fast and loose with the rules didn't just suddenly appear as a retcon.

 

[Orphalesion]

It reduces a genuine celebration that the Empire was defeated to a BS photo op, like George W. Bush on that aircraft carrier with the "Mission Accomplished" banner.
And if the Empire was still out there, the Rebels REALLY should be packing up and relocating, rather than wasting time handing out medals. IIRC, the Empire knew where the Rebel base was, and were getting ready to train the Death Star's guns on Yavin before it was destroyed.

As I say I strongly disagree with that. I'm not a military expert, but do armies usually wait for a war to end to decorate soldiers that have distinguished themselves in a particularly difficult/deciding battle?

And their current mission, to destroy the Death Star, was accomplished. And it was a result worthy of celebration.They won an important battle, not the whole war.
And I'm pretty sure they started packing right after the ceremony. They weakened the Empire in that sector enough to catch a bit of a break, celebrate (and I'm pretty sure there was also a ceremony to remember the pilots lost in the assault on the Death Star, as well as the inhabitants of Alderaan) and then go to their next hideout.

 

[fireproof78]

Not to be a downer, but, "you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain." The Jedi had been the guardians of the Republic for something like 20,000 years. That's a mighty long time to be the purest noble souls the whole time, and it's hardly surprising that the ones that survived would be making compromises toward the end. I just think it makes him and Yoda more interesting. They're not the bad guys, but they're not perfect. Perfect is boring.

I don't find them good is the problem.

Oh, and sorry for the double post, but even in the very first movie, Obi-Wan mindscrews a stormtrooper and then tells Luke "don't ever do that". His willingness to play fast and loose with the rules didn't just suddenly appear as a retcon.

I don't recall him telling Luke not to do that. He just says "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded" and leaves it at that.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

More that his character was basically assassinated in to a liar and a manipulator, and that these supposed good Jedi who were the guardians of peace and justice just completely suck and the only way they felt they could correct their mistake was to lie.

Exactly. The original Star Wars was basically a fairy tale in space. It wasn't about moral compromise, it was about clear cut good guys and bad guys. And the retcons make Ben Kenobi into a lying asshole for no good reason.

 

[fireproof78]

Exactly. The original Star Wars was basically a fairy tale in space. It wasn't about moral compromise, it was about clear cut good guys and bad guys. And the retcons make Ben Kenobi into a lying asshole for no good reason.

Pretty much, this.

Clone Wars did an OK job of kind exploring it, but the Jedi lost a lot of moral high ground (no pun intended) with how the Clone Wars proceeded, and Obi-Wan is a little more understandable. But, ROTS, especially the Mustufar fight, really puts him in the most horrible light in terms of what he tells Luke later.

 

[Replica Picard]

But, ROTS, especially the Mustufar fight, really puts him in the most horrible light in terms of what he tells Luke later.

 

[Trekkie27]

We've gone from discussing ST's canon's consistency or lack thereof, to discussing SW's consistency or lack thereof. I guess SW is really more interesting.

 

[Lord Garth]

We've gone from discussing ST's canon's consistency or lack thereof, to discussing SW's consistency or lack thereof. I guess SW is really more interesting.

No. We're just tired of arguing about the topic of canon, so shifted gears.

 

[Replica Picard]

We've gone from discussing ST's canon's consistency or lack thereof, to discussing SW's consistency or lack thereof. I guess SW is really more interesting.

The secret is that, with all of the parallel universes and time travel and everything, ALL sci-fi (and most fiction) IS Star Trek. Star Wars just takes place a long time ago in the 56th mirror universe to your left.

 

[Forbin]

Exactly. The original Star Wars was basically a fairy tale in space. It wasn't about moral compromise, it was about clear cut good guys and bad guys. And the retcons make Ben Kenobi into a lying asshole for no good reason.

...from a certain point of view.

 

[Orphalesion]

Retcons that make things true "from a certain point of view" are, imho, a lot worse than retcons that simply overwrite or contradict earlier material.
It's like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

So to me the later Star Trek series flat-out contradicting TOS, or DISC/PIC flatly contradicting 90s Trek is a lot better than the bull[pooping] they retroactively made Obi Wan do in Episode IV
And it would have been so easy to avoid...just make Obi Wan meet a 16-year old Anakin who works on a spice frighter during the Clone Wars and take him on as his student.

 

[fireproof78]

to me the later Star Trek series flat-out contradicting TOS, or DISC/PIC flatly contradicting 90s Trek is a lot better than the bull[pooping] they retroactively made Obi Wan do in Episode IV

Makes more sense to me with Star Trek.

 

[Captain Crow]

We've gone from discussing ST's canon's consistency or lack thereof

Star Trek's canon is consistent. It's a story telling device used to tell stories.

Its continuity as a whole on the other hand is all over the shop.

ST: TOS has very little continuity as, like other shows made during that time period, they were more interested in telling stories rather than the minutiae. Things changed if the stories required them to.

ST: TAS similar to ST: TOS was story over minutiae.

The first ten movies are more or less in their own continuities. I-VI reusing elements from TOS. VII-X reusing elements from ST: TNG, ST: DS9, ST: V and ST: E.

ST: TNG, ST: DS9, ST: V and ST: E were more or less in there own continuities that fluctuated from time to time.

The Kelvin stuff is its own continuity.

ST: D and ST: P are in their own continuities reusing bits and bobs from the stuff that came before them and each other.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

So canon is not important? Then why have canon at all? Superman should not come from Krypton, then.

Canon is important but it's also expendable for the sake of good stories and should never serve to hog-tie a a writer. If someone rebooted Superman (to borrow your example), to be a black man whose real parents were aliens hiding on earth from Kryptonians, and later mentored by a white farmer who was his father's best friend, why would that be a bad thing if great stories came from it?

 

[Qonundrum]

No. We're just tired of arguing about the topic of canon, so shifted gears.

In a thread devoted to canon being inconsistent?
(the SW segue was amusing, though... )

 

[fireproof78]

We've gone from discussing ST's canon's consistency or lack thereof, to discussing SW's consistency or lack thereof. I guess SW is really more interesting.

Not really, no. SW canon I gave up on because it was so inconsistent and so detailed oriented that it became tiresome to discuss with friends.

Trek canon is more fun because I see Trek fans willing to engage in explaining different aspects and rationalize away inconsistencies. Compare with SW where it is so detailed oriented, from visual guides to cross-sections and the like all the details have to be accounted for either through film (rare) or through book (more common).

One requires more imagination while the other expects black and white answers.

 

[Tribble Threat]

The thing about Star Trek is that most of its episodes are about planets that are never seen before or after, and are not in the Federation. Hardly any episodes are about the future of human society, or the Federation. The humans are point-of-view characters, there to observe and respond to the non-human societies. So human society and the Federation are not thoroughly fleshed out, and inconsistencies with them don't hurt the story much.
Star Wars was about The Empire. So everyone in it was from the Empire. And everyone, human or not, observed and responded to the empire they were born into. So you did see the homeworlds of a few major characters get fleshed out, mostly Tattooine because it's the home of Luke Skywalker.

 

[Trekkie27]

Canon is important but it's also expendable for the sake of good stories and should never serve to hog-tie a a writer. If someone rebooted Superman (to borrow your example), to be a black man whose real parents were aliens hiding on earth from Kryptonians, and later mentored by a white farmer who was his father's best friend, why would that be a bad thing if great stories came from it?

Because that would not be Superman; that would be someone else. The fun of canon is to have a consistent story line.

 

[fireproof78]

Because that would not be Superman; that would be someone else. The fun of canon is to have a consistent story line.

Yes, that would be Superman. It would just be another way of telling the story.