ST canon is inconsistent and contradictory.

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Trekkie27, Apr 20, 2020.

  1. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    I always just figured hat the Klingon Empire was, ya know, a vast interplanetary Empire, made up of many planets inhabited by many races. It just so happened that our dealings with the Klingon Empire during TOS times only involved the smooth-headed peoples from one area of the Empire. Later, during TNG times, those people were in disfavor with the military of this vast totalitarian Empire, and we only saw the ridge-headed peoples. I didn't need any stupid virus to explain it in a convoluted story that awkwardly forced elements together from various other productions.

    The US Military is made up of people of every race on Earth. Starfleet crews are made up of every race and species from hundreds of planets. Why would the Klingon Empire's military be only one species and race?
     
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  2. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    To claim that you as a fan know a show better than the people who are making the show is the height of arrogance.
    Yeah, I agree that this is the simplest, most logical explanation. Chris Claremont introduced the notion in the Debt of Honor graphic novel he did with Adam Hughes that he wrote that the smooth-headed Klingons simply suffered a discommendation as a race, much as Worf did in "Debt of Honor."

    But I wish that Star Trek really drove the point of the Klingons having different races home by showing all the different styles of Klingon makeups together in one place. Do a gathering of the 24 houses of Klingons on DSC and show a group of smooth headed, swarthy, Fu Manchu TOS style Klingons next to some TMP style Klingons next to some TNG style Klingons next to some TUC style Klingons next to the varieties of Klingon that DSC introduced. You've got 24 different houses. Just establish that some of them look like the Klingons that we've previously seen in other ST productions.
     
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  3. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I was hoping for something like that when DSC first aired and representatives from the various houses had that holo-conference. Alas it was not to be, but we finally got the Romulan equivalent of that in PIC - curiously enough with the same brief explanation that GR offered up back when TMP came out (that group are northerners, that group are southerners)
     
  4. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Tomorrow Never Knows Premium Member

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    There wolf.... (Row 1 Column 3)
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    IDK I mean if it's your headcanon then it's alright for you.
    But, personally, while I would LOVE to finally see some of the KE's subject races...the theory has too many holes for me.
    Like:

    1) Why would they call a Klingon Subject race "Klingons"?
    2)It's too much of a coincidence that for the whole of TOS they never ran into a single "real" (ridge headed) Klingon?
    3)Why did we never see a single member of that Smootheaded subject race for the whole of 90s trek?
    4)How does it explain the Klingons from the modern movies or from Discovery, who each look very different again?
    5)Why would Bashir, O'Brien, Sisko and especially Dax be unfamiliar with the Smootheaded Folk?
    6)Why did Kang and Kor appear as both Ridgeheads and Smootheads, if it's two differenc species?

    For me I have to go with "they just updated the makeup" (just like they changed the Tribble makeup between TNG and TOS) and that from the POV of the 90s series, the TOS Klingons always looked like 90s Klingons and Worf's line in Trials and Tribbelations was just a joke, particularly because the showrunners on DS9 liked to point out that the series is just a series (they purposefully recast Ziyal for that reason, and the planned Benny ending.
     
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  6. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Tell that to every movie critic... especially for movies like:


    <-- the best part but do check out pt 1 first

    Is the presenter arrogant?

    The point is that everybody's human, not everybody knows everything, the goal is to keep hiccups minimal and/or to get the rug over it so people don't notice... both fans and makers know that. What fans don't know is what is being made, and the makers don't know if audiences will like it. It would be safer to opine that one does not spend exorbitant amount of money to deliberate destroy their own franchise. Like Star Trek and Star Wars and Doctor Who according to whoever's the least satisfied with what was made. There are always plot holes and there are always styles.

    Just be glad Jerry Springer didn't reinvent his show as a sitcom.
     
  7. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Or to try, anyway. Canon can become a hindrance after a point but if the alteration isn't too far out, and done well, most people who like it tend to accept it with lesser amounts of narrative nitpicking (if any), and then go about fathoming how all those various pieces could be put together in a not-inconceivable way.
     
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    The Klingons could simply be controlling information that outside powers could know.
     
  9. Replica Picard

    Replica Picard Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I really wish they had handled it by not even having a verbal exchange about it, and instead just given Dorn the TOS makeup while they were in that time period without any comment AT ALL. It would have given Dorn a break from the makeup chair, and it would have established once and for all (especially for Discovery) that makeup changes (and maybe even changes in the depictions of ships, tech, etc) are out-of-story choices that should be ignored or just appreciated on the meta level by the viewer. Taken it back to what Roddenberry implied about TMP: this is just what they looked like the whole time. ;)
    I can't agree. If someone says or implies that they could do a better job of making the show, altogether, then my response is "let's see it", but actors often know their parts. Tim Russ confessed to a room full of people that I was in that often because of shooting order he had no idea what was even supposed to be going on in a lot of episodes of Voyager. Directors may or may not have tried to learn about the show history, but they mostly know the story they want to tell and how they want it to look. Some are Trek fans, and that's cool and helpful, but most aren't, really.

    Most of the show makers are NOT going to know the show as well as devoted fans, because some of us are devoted to a degree ranging even up to the point where we've indulged in full on escapism, because there's a lot more of us and so just by statistics there's a lot more of us with better memories than they have, and because we haven't had to be involved in production: we just got to enjoy the product in a more-or-less linear fashion.

    And all of that is perfectly okay as long as they make good entertainment that we can enjoy. As most of us know, arguing about contradictions in the product or even whether we're allowed to argue about them is all part of the fun, anyway.
     
  10. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    same reason that when the roman empire would conquer a new region the conquered peoples would be called roman citizens. subject people in the klingon empire are klingons.
    the reason given in the novel the final reflection?
    that segment of the empire fell out of favor? or alternately there was a rise in the warrior philosophy, not just militarily but also politically, and only "true blooded" klingons were permitted to serve aboard warships.
    discovery's a different universe.

    i figure klingons like klaa and vixis and their crew have head shapes that look similar because they're from the same house and are from the same extend family. worf looks like a average Klingon. the top of the bell curve, which is where you find the majority of the Klingon aristocracy.
    why didn't the officers of the enterprise-d know about trills?

    not everyone is going to know everything about every species, there are thousands of non-humans in the trek-verse. o'brien and bashir might never have seen a smooth Klingon.

    and where were sisko and dax surprised by see smooth heads? dax would certain have seen them before.
    cosmetic surgery to maintain the newest trendy appearance.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  11. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But still, what about Kang and Kor then?Cosmetic surgery as a solution is a little bit inelegant.
    Again I don't have anything against the theory (other that I'm not sharing it) just having fun disusing that further.


    Eh, the Greeks and Egyptains, for example continued to be called Greeks and Egyptians, even under Roman Rule (in fact the word Greece comes from the Roman name for the place)
    But I give you that the soldiers would be called Roman Legions, no matter what culture their members would originate from.

    Wanna elaborate on that? Because I'm not buying and reading a novel just to continue this conversation.
     
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  12. Replica Picard

    Replica Picard Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    They're part of the reason I wish they had just put Dorn in TOS makeup in "Trials". Nobody, not even Dax, said a thing about the legendary three looking different. It would have been better left at "they always looked like this".
     
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  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I figure more genetic engineering as a reward for service.
     
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  14. C57D

    C57D Guest

    The Final Reflection was a (fantastic, superlative) novel written entirely from the Klingon perspective. In it, the "turtle heads" are the original Klingons, but they make genetically spliced fusion races to better deal with major opponents. The TOS Klingons are Human fusion, and there are Romulan fusion also. In it, the Klingons were aware of Humans about twenty years before we were aware of them. Ship losses during that time (just blamed on pirates) result in plenty of specimens to work on, and so by the time we are aware of them there are Human fusion Klingons manning the ships on our shared borders.
    I much prefer this (1980's) explanation to the "we all caught a cold and gained smooth heads" bogus explanation in Enterprise.
     
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  15. Trekkie27

    Trekkie27 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I don't know why, in Next Gen, they wasted money on that elaborate makeup for Worf - just make him like a TOS Klingon and save the money.
     
  16. diankra

    diankra Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, it is lit-verse, but not onscreen.
     
  17. hbquikcomjamesl

    hbquikcomjamesl Commodore Commodore

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    . . . There Castle!
    Why are you talking like that?
    I thought you wanted to.

    -----------
    ST canon is inconsistent and contradictory.
    Oz canon is inconsistent and contradictory.
    Holmes canon is inconsistent and contradictory.
    OLD TESTAMENT canon -- the original canon -- is inconsistent and contradictory.
     
  18. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nothing in the litverse is canon by definition. Demora Sulu becoming Captain of the Enterprise-B may still be continuity for the novels, but it's never, ever been canon. VOY co-creator and producer Jeri Taylor wrote a couple of novels detailing the backstory of several VOY characters, and even those were thrown out of continuity after Taylor left the series and the show went a different way.
     
  19. diankra

    diankra Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yep, and despite having the inbuilt excuse of time travel changing history, and more importantly the Time War repeatedly doing that, modern Who often ties itself in knots to remain consistent, even though that ties it to 1960s physics (worse, what 1960s writers remembered from their science lessons 20 years earlier...)
     
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  20. diankra

    diankra Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Though even in TOS there are variations, some have human eyebrows, others have raised ones more like a Vulcan.