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City on the Edge of Tomorrow: Overrated

I am always amused by the idea that "It's part of the job" then it automatically means it will be easy to deal with.

Speaking from personal experience I completely disagree with it.
 
I am always amused by the idea that "It's part of the job" then it automatically means it will be easy to deal with.

Speaking from personal experience I completely disagree with it.

I don't think anyone here said that it would be easy. But military commanders are much more familiar with the idea that completing their mission might involve the loss of lives than your average romantic TV lead.
 
I don't think anyone here said that it would be easy. But military commanders are much more familiar with the idea that completing their mission might involve the loss of lives than your average romantic TV lead.
I can only speak for my experience. I'm not a military commander. But I do know that I connect with some people and that their deaths impact me in different ways.

I accept that in my field death can occur. But on the individual level there are some that get to me much harder than others.
 
Well, we don't always fall in love because we want to.

Anyway, if it had been someone else, Kirk might at least have been able to believe that they'd lived a long, happy live even if he couldn't be with them. In this case, that's not really an option.

Fair enough on all counts. I guess the point is that it was always going to be a tragedy, with the writers choosing to go all out on that point.

I am always amused by the idea that "It's part of the job" then it automatically means it will be easy to deal with.

Speaking from personal experience I completely disagree with it.

No, it wouldn't be easy. I don't think anyone is arguing that. I think the the only point being made is that, based on Kirk's background, he would choose the to follow his duty, no matter how painful that would be. (Kinda wish that '60s TV had more serialization, so the aftereffects of the show could've been explored a bit onscreen.)
 
No, it wouldn't be easy. I don't think anyone is arguing that. I think the the only point being made is that, based on Kirk's background, he would choose the to follow his duty, no matter how painful that would be. (Kinda wish that '60s TV had more serialization, so the aftereffects of the show could've been explored a bit onscreen.)
Well, the comics have some follow up that isn't bad.

And I think Kirk is fully impacted by her death even as he chooses his duty.
 
Well, the comics have some follow up that isn't bad.

And I think Kirk is fully impacted by her death even as he chooses his duty.

Sure, I agree that the end of the episode shows us that it was a life-changing event and all that. Probably the best episode ending of the old series. However, I think the show skipping ahead after Kirk had had time to process what happened was a missed opportunity, unlike how after "Best of Both Worlds," TNG did the "Family" episode that, in part, had Picard recovering from the Borg. Not saying that we "needed" anything else to make "City" feel complete as a short story in and of itself, but it seems like some kind of onscreen "what happened next" was in order, like how Ellison's original draft ended with Kirk and Spock discussing what happened.

I know some of the tie-ins have built on it (the Crucible trilogy was about how Kirk, Spock, and McCoy's futures were affected the Guardian -- some really good writing in tying things together and liked how it was its own thing and not bound by the "novel-verse" versions -- and the framing story of Final Frontier -- as dated as the fictional history is, loved how all that was put together), but it seems like there've been more token references then not to the episode. Maybe @Christopher, @Greg Cox, @KRAD, or some of the other tie-in authors who frequent the forums have a better memory of "City"'s legacy in the printed page and/or better insight into the subject then I do.
 
I watched this one a few days ago. While it's always at the top of the list of "all time favorite episodes" whenever a survey comes up...well, I just don't rate it that highly. There's something about it that just seems off. I've read Ellison's draft (one of them anyway) and I'm neither here nor there with his either. A few things keep me from loving this one.

1) Sense of time and place: 1930 never feels real. I mean, sure, the trappings are there, but thanks to the limitations of budget and time, it always feels artificial. This is, what, the third time we're on the Mayberry set? There were no matte paintings to put skyscrapers in the background over the "too small for that part of Manhattan" buildings, very few interactions that make me feel like they're trapped back in time. Ellison's version makes it clearer that Spock's life expectancy in such an invironment is limited if he's discovered. Lip service is paid toward the depression era strife, no real effort is spent to actually truly depict it other than bums in the mission. I know that's not the point of the episode, but their surroundings feel no more real to me than the O.K. Corral did two years later. Even The Time Tunnel was more convincing. And we have no idea how long Kirk and Spock are waiting for McCoy. Weeks? Months?

2) The relationship with Edith: I'm not sold on her. She spouts very unlikely speeches that are a little on the nose, just to make it clear that Kirk would take notice of her. Their romance doesn't feel grounded in anything other than she's a futurist. Their relationship is remote. Shatner is charming and does his best to convey Kirk's longing for her, but Joan Collins doesn't sell it the same way. Why does she assume Spock calls Kirk "captain" when we never hear him address him that way in her presence? It obviously happened since Kirk doesn't question it, but we needed to see it. She is this way because she needs to be for the plot, but she doesn't feel like a person. She's a chess piece. I feel as if this episode is cheated by being a single part installment. Had this been a two part episode closing out the season, more time could have been spent developing Edith as a character. She really isn't one. Whatever I feel for her is based entirely on Shatner's performance. I feel no sadless at all for Edith. Frankly, whatever importence she carried in Kirk's life is created entirely by stories written well after the series ended. Writers have been telling us for years that she is the one great love in Kirk's life. But other episodes would show us a few more. Hell, I actually like Miramanee more as we got to see them grow together over the months.

I realize any dozen of you will come back and tell me why I'm wrong. ;) But like a number of episodes in the late first season, I find this one to be not as amazing as most people feel. The shitty ADR doesn't help. The overdubbing of Shatner and Nimoy in the Guardian scenes is partifcularly sloppy.

Above average, but that's about all it is for me.
 
^^^I tend to agree with your points, though I rate the episode higher than you do.
1. Yeah, it never looks or feels like Manhattan.
2. Many fine actresses of the day would have been better as Edith. From the Trek roster, I think Diana Muldaur, Jan Shutan and Antoinette Bower would have done better. Never on Trek, but Jacqueline Scott, a very fine television "jobbing" actress, would have done well.

Sir Rhosis
 
When Ellison first pitched the story it was set in Chicago, and because the show was working on a story called “Chicago II” they asked him to switch it to New York. The sets they had would’ve been a bit more convincing as Chicago of the time.
 
I re-watched it the other night, and I agree, the rapid 'falling for' Edith really doesn't make sense in the few days they are there. It is all Kirk, and really the whole thing feels like a plot device. Of course the ending is incredibly sad - but Kirk did not need to be in the intense stage of love he claimed to be in, for it to work. The whole relationship feels very rushed.
 
I watched this one a few days ago. While it's always at the top of the list of "all time favorite episodes" whenever a survey comes up...well, I just don't rate it that highly. There's something about it that just seems off. I've read Ellison's draft (one of them anyway) and I'm neither here nor there with his either. A few things keep me from loving this one.

While I like the episode a lot, there are others I like a lot more. Read the comic adaptation of Ellison's script and I think the episode is superior. (Good script and I should get a copy of that comic, but the TV version is more streamlined and fixed a few things.)

1) Sense of time and place: 1930 never feels real. I mean, sure, the trappings are there, but thanks to the limitations of budget and time, it always feels artificial. This is, what, the third time we're on the Mayberry set? There were no matte paintings to put skyscrapers in the background over the "too small for that part of Manhattan" buildings, very few interactions that make me feel like they're trapped back in time. Ellison's version makes it clearer that Spock's life expectancy in such an invironment is limited if he's discovered. Lip service is paid toward the depression era strife, no real effort is spent to actually truly depict it other than bums in the mission. I know that's not the point of the episode, but their surroundings feel no more real to me than the O.K. Corral did two years later. Even The Time Tunnel was more convincing. And we have no idea how long Kirk and Spock are waiting for McCoy. Weeks? Months?

I wasn't bothered by this, but fair enough.

2) The relationship with Edith: I'm not sold on her. She spouts very unlikely speeches that are a little on the nose, just to make it clear that Kirk would take notice of her. Their romance doesn't feel grounded in anything other than she's a futurist. Their relationship is remote. Shatner is charming and does his best to convey Kirk's longing for her, but Joan Collins doesn't sell it the same way. Why does she assume Spock calls Kirk "captain" when we never hear him address him that way in her presence? It obviously happened since Kirk doesn't question it, but we needed to see it. She is this way because she needs to be for the plot, but she doesn't feel like a person. She's a chess piece. I feel as if this episode is cheated by being a single part installment. Had this been a two part episode closing out the season, more time could have been spent developing Edith as a character. She really isn't one. Whatever I feel for her is based entirely on Shatner's performance. I feel no sadless at all for Edith. Frankly, whatever importence she carried in Kirk's life is created entirely by stories written well after the series ended. Writers have been telling us for years that she is the one great love in Kirk's life. But other episodes would show us a few more. Hell, I actually like Miramanee more as we got to see them grow together over the months.

Thought I was one of the only ones who wasn't sold on Keeler. (Personally, I thought that Carol Marcus was the most interesting love interest character Kirk had -- something about the complicated emotions and history they're shown to have feels a lot more real then some of the similar stuff we saw elsewhere in the franchise.)

Back to Keeler, kinda funny you bring all that up, since I was recently replaying a video game called Life is Strange that kinda made me think about all that. Spoilers if you want the details, but suffice to say that it made the Kirk/Keeler romance pale in comparison:
In the game, you play an eighteen-year-old girl named Max who discovers she has the power to rewind brief stretches of time. This activates when she prevents the murder of a young woman who turns out be her old childhood friend, Chloe. This allows the two to rekindle their broken friendship as they play Nancy Drew to uncover the town's mysteries with Max's new powers, including why Max is having visions of the town's destruction by tornado.

It turns out that Max's meddling with the timeline is what triggered the tornado and the only way to stop it is to go back in time and prevent herself from ever using the power in the first place. This forces her (well, us the players as her) in the same "needs of the many vs. the one" trolly problem Kirk had, with Max needing to chose between the lives of the townsfolk and Chloe's life -- made especially complex since Max and Chloe have either rebuilt the sisterly friendship they once had or have fallen in love (player's decisions through the game shape which status).

While the game has more screen time to tell its story then the episode did and we are an active participant in the game while a passive observer in the episode, I think the writing was more on point. While both stories had a whirlwind relationship set up (Kirk and Keeler seemed to be love at first or second sight, Max and Chloe had reconciled their friendship a day after reconnecting and seemed to be falling for each other within two -- albeit with already having extensive history), the game had really fleshed out characters who had a lot of development and the relational dynamics were up to the same level. I think that attention to detail lead to me being far more invested with them then I was with Kirk and Keeler.
 
Well the wages come weekly surely or every couple of days and Kirk would have needed to save his money to pay for Spock to buy the materials needed for his work as I doubt he would have been payed that much plus Kirk's romance with Edith wouldn't have taken off do quickly nor from her stand point anyways! :techman:
JB
 
Poor people picked up out side the 1930 equivalence of the home depot, get paid at the end of the day, because the contractor is probably going to hire different alcoholic bums tomorrow. Which is a possibility more than a certainty. Quick labour also doesn't completely trust their pseudo employer to still be there on payday after putting in 4 dozen hours work.

I don't think anyone here said that it would be easy. But military commanders are much more familiar with the idea that completing their mission might involve the loss of lives than your average romantic TV lead.

As a child, the mayor murdered half of Jim's home town, so that there was enough food to go around, after the crops failed.

As a 20 something, some glowing space fart vampire sucked dry a third of his fellow crew till they were dead.

Kirk needed therapy, because there's no way that his relationship with life and death is close to normal.
 
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Well the wages come weekly surely or every couple of days and Kirk would have needed to save his money to pay for Spock to buy the materials needed for his work as I doubt he would have been payed that much plus Kirk's romance with Edith wouldn't have taken off do quickly nor from her stand point anyways! :techman:
JB

Kirk and Spock were day laborers. They had their jobs as opportunity (Edith) presented them. So nah, no weekly paydays.
 
Kirk and Spock were in 1930 for a couple of weeks I've always thought, due to Kirk spending his wages on food and some of the essentials that Spock needed to tie into the computer which also never made sense!
The tricorder was a self-contained, standalone device. It could record, store and play back data without needing to be plugged into anything else. Why now, all of a sudden, does Spock need to tie the tricorder into the ship's computers to play back what he recorded?

Of course, the "constructing a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins" thing was a story device to delay Spock's discovery of the alternate future timeline. But it could have been handled by giving Spock a line to the effect that some of the tricorder's circuits were fried when it went through the Time Bagel. That would have been more consistent with the tricorder's established capabilities.
 
The tricorder was a self-contained, standalone device. It could record, store and play back data without needing to be plugged into anything else. Why now, all of a sudden, does Spock need to tie the tricorder into the ship's computers to play back what he recorded?

Of course, the "constructing a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins" thing was a story device to delay Spock's discovery of the alternate future timeline. But it could have been handled by giving Spock a line to the effect that some of the tricorder's circuits were fried when it went through the Time Bagel. That would have been more consistent with the tricorder's established capabilities.

I'm having trouble recalling other episodes where they viewed footage like that on the tricorder without it wired into a computer or other device, but I'll take your word for it. That's a fair point, though; recall seeing a fan guide book that wondered why the tricorder would have a playback screen if it couldn't operate solo.

Still, liked this plot segment for this episode, irregardless of how it worked or did not with the rest of the series.
 
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