I remember that scene.
"WHY THE F*** DID YOU DO THAT, PICARD, YOU F****** F***! I HOPE THE BORG F*** YOU UP, DOWN, AND SIDEWAYS!"
Spoilers Let’s talk about the destruction of Trek utopia…
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I remember that scene.
"WHY THE F*** DID YOU DO THAT, PICARD, YOU F****** F***! I HOPE THE BORG F*** YOU UP, DOWN, AND SIDEWAYS!"
Nechayev could make Kirk feel guilty about having sex with a scantily-clad alien woman.
Wow, I've only checked into there last few pages of this discussion, but on utopia:
1) I'm a fan.
2a) I'm curious as anyone to see what history you come up with for Gene's Vision, Lord Garth, but...
2b) It doesn't ultimately matter when he came up with it or what the reasoning for it was. The point is that people like it, and it matters to them.
3) I adore PIC, but enjoy it as utopia adjacent. It doesn't preclude people in the Federation having mostly pretty great, fulfilling, moral, lives, but, yeah, it's also not all that it could be in the eyes of the utopianists. Oh well. The Adventure Continues.
4)...one more thing. What do people have against the idea of utopia? That is, the real thing, not some stagnant dystopia masquerading as it, ubiquitous in fiction. I mean, it's actually really freaking hard to do right. To create "a more perfect union." And I don't think most people are out there saying, how can we make life worse or remain exactly as difficult, unfair, and unjust as it is right now, only with nicer holographic curtains. You want life to be challenging, the idea being to inspire excellence, but you don't want to create a false religion out of inequity, a Stockholm syndrome of those it hasn't murdered.
1) I'm a fan.
2a) I'm curious as anyone to see what history you come up with for Gene's Vision, Lord Garth, but...
2b) It doesn't ultimately matter when he came up with it or what the reasoning for it was. The point is that people like it, and it matters to them.
3) I adore PIC, but enjoy it as utopia adjacent. It doesn't preclude people in the Federation having mostly pretty great, fulfilling, moral, lives, but, yeah, it's also not all that it could be in the eyes of the utopianists. Oh well. The Adventure Continues.
4)...one more thing. What do people have against the idea of utopia? That is, the real thing, not some stagnant dystopia masquerading as it, ubiquitous in fiction. I mean, it's actually really freaking hard to do right. To create "a more perfect union." And I don't think most people are out there saying, how can we make life worse or remain exactly as difficult, unfair, and unjust as it is right now, only with nicer holographic curtains. You want life to be challenging, the idea being to inspire excellence, but you don't want to create a false religion out of inequity, a Stockholm syndrome of those it hasn't murdered.
Let's not go crazy here.
I've full blown leaked water from around my eyes.
Because Trek never showed it and improvement isn't utopia. Nor is it dystopian.
[Nechayev] WHAT DID I JUST TELL YOU, MISTER??? [/Nechayev]
*Nechayev and Kirk disrobe, stare into each other's eyes longingly*
And THAT'S how Kirk would get over his guilt.
Thanks. I'm only part of the way done typing the post. There's a lot of material and a lot of sources and a lot of transcribing. I'm not saying anyone has to agree with me, but I want them to be able to follow how I came to the conclusions I did. If you know my line of thinking, you can dispute it as well.
But I'm not going with it where you think I'm going.
I'm not telling people what to like and what not to like. What I'm really saying is: I don't think there's anything wrong with liking something that people think doesn't adhere to "Gene's Vision". I'm challenging the people who are trying to say it's not Star Trek. The ones who don't think we know Star Trek or are familiar with Gene Roddenberry or any of that.
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True, he had a hard choice, that turned out to be no choice. And speaking of, that was classic science fiction.
I do recall from the episode, it was a struggle, and later Picard himself admitted it may have been the moral thing to do, but not the smart thing to do.
It just looked more like they talked themselves into simply returning Hugh, and that gave them a moral escape clause.
The attitude of some of the crew was rather odd considering how close the Borg came to destroying humanity last time.
Beverly admitted the Borg as a species was a deadly enemy, and yet she complained that she still didn't like the idea of destroying them.
Based on this, I'm not too surprised some people think of Trek or TNG as pushing utopia, because of the super idealistic behavior of some of its characters.
Like being extremely reluctant to attack or destroy a genocidal enemy. Or being no longer offended by insults, or being evolved beyond seeking revenge even in the name of justice.
It did seem kind of idealistic in extreme sense.
I'm sorry for you.
Oh please don't be! Many people have had it worse. At least I had a very clear-cut example of what not to do.
Well, I can think of a few things.
1. In general, utopias are kind of boring. (Suddenly I'm thinking of The Good Place.)
2. When discussing Trek utopia in particular, the pro-utopia side has often employed selective memory and outright intellectual dishonesty. They deserve to be called out for this.
3. The idea that a utopian society can be built and maintained without constant labor strikes me as very much at variance with everything we know about human beings. (A basic premise of Trek is that modifying humans to make them better is out of bounds, so we can't go there.)
Exactly why they're not actual utopias.
TOS was progressive for its day and that was part of what was freaking cool about it. It's not wrong to identify after the fact what people liked about your work and try to explore that further.
Labor as in working class or labor as in pursuing a labor of love? You can strive for and dedicate yourself fully to something without being a number in a another person's, maybe a prince's or, these days, a celebrity's story.
How about dreaming of rainbow towers,
fulfilling days and loving hours,
clouds of wonder and streets in space,
emerald ships that feed the poor elsewhere?
Dream of duranium and subspace,
of days of exploration and nights of passion,
boys that talked like men and girls like adults.
Maybe they weren't your dreams but they were others.
Maybe learn how they did it so you can contribute,
and make better ones,
or completely different ones...
There's fear there...of your own ignorance jealousy malice hatred and death to keep you company.
And if it were truly a utopia, someone would be there to help explain that the free toys and effective wines aren't anywhere near the best part of the place.
I'll try to make it simpler for you.
2) TOS was a more utopian vision of the future, if not an outright utopian one. It's not at all disingenuous to say you want your Trek to have more of that still.
3) Machines will do the labor. We all know this is coming. It's already here. How often do you make your own candles, paper, and penicillin? You're typing on a magical device right now. Work will, should, get better in the future, or you're going to see a bloodbath that made the French Revolution look like a paper cut.
Heck, Corona may be catalyst to some of that in the months ahead. Vaccine isn't coming for 18 months: where do you think everyone's headspace will be self-quarantined at home, unemployed, moneyless, starving, terrified...people in the street looting while millions are dying in hospitals fighting over not enough ventilators?
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