Spoilers The Timeless Children grade and discussion thread

[Allyn Gibson]

I started thinking about this last night.

The episode re-canonized the "Morbius" Doctors. (Personally, I never thought they were decanonized, and that was a hill I was always willing to die on, but, for the vast majority of fans, they weren't canon.) Then I started thinking about Big Finish's Unbound Doctors, and while five of them are clearly not intended to fit into Doctor Who history, there's one that could have fit, there simply wasn't space for him in the history we knew -- the David Collings Doctor from Full Fathom Five. Now, there is a space for him (and his successive regenerations), somewhere in the past that the Doctor is now aware of but doesn't fully remember, so it's possible that Full Fathom Five has been effectively deUnbounded as a consequence of last night.

I've seen suggestions since yesterday that the Shalka Doctor goes back there, one of the Doctor's pre-Christopher Baker incarnations, as well as Nick Briggs' Doctor from the Audio-Visuals.

 

[cultcross]

Except, his attitude towards the Doctor is puzzingly aloof. If this is the Master before Missy but after Simm, fine - I'd love it, because then Missy's "I knew him since he was a little girl" comment would come off as rudely funny - but we don't know so we go with the assumption he's post-Missy. And if he is, then both he and the Doctor should have adressed the Doctor's enormous attempt to rehabilitate him in series 10 - you know, that season's arc? Instead you have them exchanging platitudes, in exactly the same awkward situation as Moffat put the Doctor with Davros in series 9. Without aknowledging some actual history, there's no tension, just a lot of fidgeting between two actors who visibly don't know that said history (not that they should, because a good script could communicate that stuff for them). We should have seen the Doctor disappointed the Master's bad, and the Master should have remarked how he's no longer giving him any chance, like "she" did (meaning himself as Missy).

And it really doesn't help that Dhawan plays the Master without an ounce of subtlety. I'm not rejecting camp here, I just don't subscribe to the Campy-Master-at-all-times club. Delgado was campy too, but he balanced it with some nuance and menace in his mannerisms.

To put it simply, if the Dhawan Master "created" this infodump as an excuse to "destroy" the Doctor, his portrayal doesn't leave room for it. He's so hammy and chewing the scenery so grinningly, I'm aghast anyone thought this was a good performance.

This version of the Master is cartoonishly ridiculous as a villain anyway and the acting is atrocious which does nothing to rescue that. He plays it as cackling pantomime villain all the time, and there's no layers there, none of, say, Simm's old tortured soul behind the silliness, or the belief that maybe Missy could be redeemed. It's just out and out camp.

 

[jaime]

I wonder if it’s the same Tardis. The Tardis did say she stole him, she could’ve been rescuing the Doctor and took on the Police Box shape either to remind him of his past or because on some subconscious level the Doctor has vague memories of what happened. 12 had some confusion over what his gender was as a child.

Whereas 11 had the crib he slept in.
All that tidying up of continuity, only for Chibnall to do this.

And let’s not ask how River got the Doctors DNA now.

 

[jaime]

I started thinking about this last night.

The episode re-canonized the "Morbius" Doctors. (Personally, I never thought they were decanonized, and that was a hill I was always willing to die on, but, for the vast majority of fans, they weren't canon.) Then I started thinking about Big Finish's Unbound Doctors, and while five of them are clearly not intended to fit into Doctor Who history, there's one that could have fit, there simply wasn't space for him in the history we knew -- the David Collings Doctor from Full Fathom Five. Now, there is a space for him (and his successive regenerations), somewhere in the past that the Doctor is now aware of but doesn't fully remember, so it's possible that Full Fathom Five has been effectively deUnbounded as a consequence of last night.

I've seen suggestions since yesterday that the Shalka Doctor goes back there, one of the Doctor's pre-Christopher Baker incarnations, as well as Nick Briggs' Doctor from the Audio-Visuals.

Cornell tweeted the Shalka Doctor himself, but frankly...he travelled with android Jacobi Master, só canonising that would be a nightmare.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Honestly, the more one thinks about this, the more apparent it becomes, I think, that it can't make any sense whatsoever.

 

[cultcross]

This episode. Hmm. What a disappointment. I thought the show might be redeeming itself after the last couple of weeks, but no.
Plot as riddled with holes as it was with clichés (get off the evil spaceship by putting on their armour! Original. Aren't you a little short for a cyberman?) and there's no real jeopardy. As pointed out up thread, the Doctor's past is window dressing, exposition, we are here to watch her future. And that was never in doubt. The final bit nobody believes was the end of that story, they haven't killed off the Master permanently because Good Lord nuWho is obsessed with him, and they aren't going to invent cyber Timelords and not use them again.


Not being all that into Who canon, I'm not the right person to address what issues the revelations do or don't cause, I just think they were profoundly silly, narratively pointless, and never made any sense as a 'dark secret' that would destroy the Doctor. It doesn't make any sense that the Master would think it would, either. He's just shown her she's an immortal Chosen One, and thinks she'll be, what, devastated?

The companions were way too sidelined yet again, and the idea they could hold off all those Cybermen by hiding in a tent is a bit ridiculous. Also the final twist would have more impact of we hadn't set the companions up with a TARDIS of their own to come get her.

 

[auntiehill]

So.........trying to piece this all together here, what exactly was the point of all that time we spent with the Irish orphan who became a police officer? Why did that get so much screen time? That was an earlier regeneration? So, why is that so important? I feel like I'm just not understanding how it all works.

The more I think about this episode, the less I understand it.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Interestingly, the Master had the cyberium inside him and the cybermasters were part cybermen and part time lord. So the Master and the cybermasters were hybrids.

While it's not what Moffat intended and probably not what Chibnall suggested, I really like this idea that the actual hybrid was The Master with Cyberium and his Cyberlords because obviously that's a fate the Time Lords would truly hate and fear. It'll probably never be stated as such, but I'm going to accept this as part of my head canon (easier to accept since I'll probably never watch "Hell Bent" ever again).

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I'm tempted to say that about this episode, personally.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

So.........trying to piece this all together here, what exactly was the point of all that time we spent with the Irish orphan who became a police officer? Why did that get so much screen time? That was an earlier regeneration? So, why is that so important? I feel like I'm just not understanding how it all works.

The more I think about this episode, the less I understand it.

Another incarnation exiled to Earth...as a baby? That was the one part I didn't understand.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Apparently it was suppose to be her memories filtered for anyone who tried exploring her mind that far back. But that doesn't make a lick of sense either because of the setting.

 

[jaime]

It was all a metaphorical dream. Gene Hunt was the original...no hang on, wrong show that sort of started with a Tyler...it was a fairytale dream possibly given to the Doctor (not that we know the Doctor was seeing it) that was secretly a matrix construct to hide the truth, which was the version we saw this week with the — I can’t resist it, and yes, I know it wasn’t at first — The Asian Child (Eric Roberts, redeemed at last) It was an attempt at the sort of thing Moffat did occasionally but usually made work.

Whilst I am on the subject of undoes and shite, how annoying was the volte face in the mercy of the lone Cybermen sparing a child out of some memory of parenthood, only to fuck that right up by having him be a child murderer. The Moffat Era gave some wonderful portrayals of fatherhood, so poignant in these times, and this mob just went back to the TV cliche of the Bad Daddy.
There isn’t an off far away enough, not even in a pocket universe, that some of the ideas the team has had this year can fuck to frankly.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I know this is a fools errand but is the the Doctor's timeline roughly as follows:

• Found as a child under a vortex on a planet
• Brought back to Gallifrey to be raised
• Falls of a cliff and reveals regeneration powers
• Experimented on until regeneration passed to Gallifreyans to create Timelords
• Flees Gallifrey in a Tardis that turns into a Police Phone Box and adopts the name the Doctor (Ruth and maybe others)
• Captured and brought back to Gallifrey
• Forced to regenerate back to a child
• Grows up to be William Hartnell, adopts the name Doctor and flees Gallifrey in a Tardis that turns in a Police Phone Box
• Classic and nuWho happens

I actually like this timeline. I'm stealing it OK?

 

[StarMan]

Honestly, the more one thinks about this, the more apparent it becomes, I think, that it can't make any sense whatsoever.

Yeah, having a day to think about it doesn't help. I know Who has a tendency to play fast and loose with it's own continuity. For the most part, it works. It's kinda fun how often an enemy is defeated for good then just pops back up. Space and time are in a constant state of flux (wibbly woobly timey wimey), so I can buy it.

But, I don't buy it as an excuse for purposefully trouncing over what's been established for the sake of it and leaving the series in a convoluted mess.

Also, next time round, can we get a show runner who doesn't HATE the Time Lords? Surely there are more creative options available than stuffy and pompous, or killing them off.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Let's augment Csalem's timeline a bit.

• Found as a child under a vortex on a planet, apparently from another (dead?) universe/dimension
  
• Brought back to ancient Gallifrey to be raised by Tecteun
  
• Falls off a cliff and reveals regeneration powers
• Experimented on by Tecteun, until regeneration passed to Gallifreyans
• Gallifreyans eventually discover time/space travel, via Tecteun/Omega/'The Other,' aka the Timeless Child. The Other apparently invents the first TARDIS.
• To secure his place as THE original Time Lord, a now quite mad Tecteun - who renames himself Rassilon - has the Other mindwiped/regenerated, tricks Omega down a one-way trip into a black hole, and imposes a 12-regeneration limit on everyone other than himself. The amnesiac Other is drafted into the black ops Faction (later to become the Celestial Intervention Agency). This is where all the Morbius Doctors come in. All sorts of time/space shenanigans ensue to ensure that only Time Lords will enjoy being able to go anywhere/anywhen.
  
• The other original Time Lords eventually get fed up with Rassilon's BS and entomb him in the Death Zone Tower. As their regeneration limits run out, they relate to their successors a completely redacted/rewritten version of their own history. Only Rassilon, Omega, and the Faction/CIA know the truth.
  
• At some point, the Agent rebels. Flees Gallifrey in a TARDIS that turns into a Police Phone Box and adopts the name 'The Doctor' (Ruth). Possibly the name comes from a deep-seated need to heal the wounds (s)he inflicted on time/the universe as The Agent.
  
• Captured and forcibly brought back to Gallifrey by the Faction/CIA.
  
• Forced to regenerate back to a child and hidden among the Shobogans, with his regeneration abilities negated via Chameleon Arch. For all intents and purposes, he is now genetically a one-heart Gallifreyan (he gets the second heart/extra brains after the first regeneration).
  
• Against all odds (and after a creepy lady gives him a chat from under his bed), the child manages to re-enter Time Lord society and attend the Academy alongside the eventual Master, becoming a Time Lord and getting a 12-regeneration cycle. Only the CIA is aware of his true nature, or that he ever once called himself 'Doctor'.
  
• Grows up to be William Hartnell, re-adopts the name Doctor and flees Gallifrey with Susan, in a TARDIS that turns into a Police Phone Box.
  
• Classic and nuWho happens.
  
• The Doctor is still presently a Gallifreyan, genetically-speaking (possibly with a bit of Earth human tossed in). She was given a new set of regenerations, but no idea how many. To fully return to her original Timeless Child state and possibly regain her lost memories, she would need to use a Chameleon Arch again - and this time to have that original genetic template to work from. In other words: It's time to hunt down Rassilon/Tecteun.

 

[The Wormhole]

I've seen suggestions since yesterday that the Shalka Doctor goes back there, one of the Doctor's pre-Christopher Baker incarnations, as well as Nick Briggs' Doctor from the Audio-Visuals.

Personally, I'm sticking to the theory that's been around since Day of the Doctor that the Shalka Doctor is in fact the War Doctor.

Cornell tweeted the Shalka Doctor himself, but frankly...he travelled with android Jacobi Master, só canonising that would be a nightmare.

Jacobi voiced the Master in Shalka, but I always assumed based on his appearance, he was supposed to be based on the Delgado Master.

So.........trying to piece this all together here, what exactly was the point of all that time we spent with the Irish orphan who became a police officer? Why did that get so much screen time? That was an earlier regeneration? So, why is that so important? I feel like I'm just not understanding how it all works.

The more I think about this episode, the less I understand it.

That was explained, the Time Lords covered the depiction of the Timeless Child's origins in the Matrix with the metaphorical tale set in Ireland about an orphan who grows up and joins the police because that was so bland and uninteresting no one would pay attention to it. And then, during last week's events, the Master was sending this telepathically to the Doctor.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Personally, I'm sticking to the theory that's been around since Day of the Doctor that the Shalka Doctor is in fact the War Doctor.

That's been my view since 2013.

We know the War Doctor began as a young man and ended as an old man. While Big Finish uses a Time Destructor to age up the War Doctor in their first box set, i prefer to think that the War Doctor lived a very, very long life, and I would not be opposed to "young" War Doctor audios from Big Finish with a recast actor.

 

[Gov Kodos]

This version of the Master is cartoonishly ridiculous as a villain anyway and the acting is atrocious which does nothing to rescue that. He plays it as cackling pantomime villain all the time, and there's no layers there, none of, say, Simm's old tortured soul behind the silliness, or the belief that maybe Missy could be redeemed. It's just out and out camp.

Without going on a Delgado is the only true Master rant, the character has been upped to ridiculous levels of threat just as much as the Daleks and the Cybermen at his point. It would be a change of pace for NuWho to spend a series without a threat to all existence and the Doctor is the magical/suffering Christ figure who alone stands between helpless little us and universal Armageddon.

I miss a Doctor who was an explorer and not the all knowing Merlin they have created.

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[Nightowl1701]

Without going on a Delgado is the only true Master rant, the character has been upped to ridiculous levels of threat just as much as the Daleks and the Cybermen at his point.

It really has reached Batman/Joker (And boy, was Dhawan channeling the latter) levels of stupid at this point. Thirteen had the right idea near the end, but going forward any writer's now stuck with 'Any response/strategy less than "END HIM at ALL costs," and the Doctor's simply enabling the Master's crimes.'

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Why did the Judoon have an arrest warrant for The Doctor? I don't feel that was adequately explained why they nabbed her at the end?

I thought they were after the Ruth Doctor, speaking of which where did she bugger off to? And why no Jack in the finale?