Spoilers The Timeless Children grade and discussion thread

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I'm getting angrier and angrier when I think about this episode. Basically, not only is she not the Thirteenth Doctor, not only was Hartnell not the First Doctor, or for that matter THE Doctor, but also, he was the progenitor of AN ENTIRE RACE!!! Furthermore, she is revealed to be the longest-running agent of the CIA?!

WHAT?!

EDIT: I had to settle for 1. Honestly? Its probably the worst episodde I've seen since Hell Bent. And both involve Gallifrey. And both prove that RTD's instincts about it (to basically "kill it with fire") were absolutely correct.

 

[Irvy]

I'm getting angrier and angrier when I think about this episode. Basically, not only is she not the Thirteenth Doctor, not only was Hartnell not the First Doctor, or for that matter THE Doctor, but also, he was the progenitor of AN ENTIRE RACE!!! Furthermore, she is revealed to be the longest-running agent of the CIA?!

WHAT?!

EDIT: I had to settle for 1. Honestly? Its probably the worst episodde I've seen since Hell Bent. And both involve Gallifrey. And both prove that RTD's instincts about it (to basically "kill it with fire") were absolutely correct.

Deep, cleansing breaths, into a paper bag. Take the jelly babies out of the paper bag first though

What's to be angry about? It doesn't undo anything, it's very inline with the sort of things they did do to the Doctor "back in the day", and things they'd planned to do. For a show as long running as this, you have to shake everything up every now and again, or you just end up standing around a table wearing High Galifreyan gowns and making pronouncements about canon violations. Those guys are nerds.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Um, to quote myself here: What?!

I'm not mad about canon. I'm mad because the show just made The Doctor into the Chosen One of his species. Hell, an entire species was created FROM her. Apparently, she WAS someone special, not just because she was smart and quirky, no! It all goes back to her!

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Um, to quote myself here: What?!

I'm not mad about canon. I'm mad because the show just made The Doctor into the Chosen One of his species. Hell, an entire species was created FROM her. Apparently, she WAS someone special, not just because she was smart and quirky, no! It all goes back to her!

Not exactly the Cartmel Masterplan, but similar. I always liked that plan in a lot of ways.

If they don't have this kind of shakeup and maybe change direction, they're just doing more of the same, like last series. Last series was "meh" at best for me.

 

[Irvy]

He literally created the universe already, and did it without dying, like he was supposed to.

 

[OCD Geek]

Um, to quote myself here: What?!

I'm not mad about canon. I'm mad because the show just made The Doctor into the Chosen One of his species. Hell, an entire species was created FROM her. Apparently, she WAS someone special, not just because she was smart and quirky, no! It all goes back to her!

To be fair to Chibnall, Andrew Cartmel, Ben Aaronovitch, Marc Platt, Kate Orman, Lawrence Miles and Lance Parkin all kinda/sorta did it first. This is basically The Other/half-human Doctor mythos with the serial numbers filed off and some cool new shit thrown in. Which is probably why I'm digging it so far.

I completely sympathise with you for how it's pissing you off, though. It was highly controversial, but easy to ignore for the half of the fandom that hated it when it was just few oblique references in Seasons 25 & 26. The vast majority of it was relegated to (frequently out-of-print) tie-in novels and an unlicensed audio/prose spin-off that 99% of the fandom didn't even know existed until very, very recently thanks to the cockblocking from a handful of fans with a hardcore gatekeeper mentality (gives the moderators of the TARDIS wiki the double middle finger salute).

They are going in-depth in the TV show proper with this retcon, which makes it impossible for the "hate" half of the love-it-or-hate response in the fandom to ignore. Also, we're two years into a five year plan. I'm loving it, but I'm really, really sorry that it's affecting you this way.

God, this is like Looms on crack. The fandom's going to crack each other's skulls open and feast on the warm goo inside.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

He didn't create the human race, though.

... although he was almost there to see it be "born".

My point is, I hate the idea of the Doctor being a Rassilon-like figure. To me, he's a quirky alien traveller who, unlike his people, wants to travel the galaxy and, again unlike his people, acts as a complete anarchist by actually helping out people.

More importantly, he's The Doctor. Always was, even when he decided he wasn't.

Also, to be fair to the Looms, at the VERY least, he was one Loom of the Other, and the show followed that Loom's adventures. Today's episode implies a whole lot more.

 

[Irvy]

He didn't create the human race, though.

... although he was almost there to see it be "born".

My point is, I hate the idea of the Doctor being a Rassilon-like figure. To me, he's a quirky alien traveller who, unlike his people, wants to travel the galaxy and, again unlike his people, acts as a complete anarchist by actually helping out people.

More importantly, he's The Doctor. Always was, even when he decided he wasn't.

But he's always been a Rassilon-like figure, with plenty of mystery about him. He was (is?) the President of Gallifrey. The Time Lords have tried to control him, and this retcon gives a great reason for why they've always kept him on a leash but let him run. They need him but they don't want to fight him. This is proper Doctor Who stuff.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

But he's always been a Rassilon-like figure, with plenty of mystery about him. He was (is?) the President of Gallifrey. The Time Lords have tried to control him, and this retcon gives a great reason for why they've always kept him on a leash but let him run. They need him but they don't want to fight him. This is proper Doctor Who stuff.

Except no, it isn't. The Time Lords barely knew who he was until his Fourth incarnation, and didn't care about him until the Doctor himself forced on them to become the President back in the day. It was the Time Lords using him because he was unimportant to them politically, not because he was an exceptional figure in Time Lord society. Despite everything he's done, to them he was always a Renegade.

 

[Nightowl1701]

But he's always been a Rassilon-like figure, with plenty of mystery about him. He was (is?) the President of Gallifrey. The Time Lords have tried to control him, and this retcon gives a great reason for why they've always kept him on a leash but let him run. They need him but they don't want to fight him. This is proper Doctor Who stuff.

And makes Clara's line in Hell Bent ("You're monsters") the understatement of the eons.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Yes, Clara. Who somehow never saw ANY of these other Timeless Children (oh, God) when she entered his timestream in Name of the Doctor.

Oops.

 

[Irvy]

Yes, Clara. Who somehow never saw ANY of these other Timeless Children (oh, God) when she entered his timestream in Name of the Doctor.

Oops.

You're right, you win, you've broken it. Somebody phone the BBC and tell them they have to change it back.

Edited to add:

Except.... the Doctor just said that was his time stream, it was really a wibbly wobbly thing generated by the Doctor's own mind. Since he didn't really die on Trenzalore that wasn't really his grave, it was something else but the Doctor didn't have time to explain it all at the time, The Doctor perceived his existence as that track of lives, so that's what Clara had access to. You could just as easily ask why she didn't immediately know Capaldi Doctor and why she'd have such a hard time adjusting to someone she ought to have seen in the "time stream"

 

[OCD Geek]

Yes, Clara. Who somehow never saw ANY of these other Timeless Children (oh, God) when she entered his timestream in Name of the Doctor.

Oops.

Some at Big Finish's ears just perked up. They fucking love stories.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

You're right, you win, you've broken it. Somebody phone the BBC and tell them they have to change it back.

I broke it?

 

[arch101]

This seems to be a series more and more in need of a complete reboot/ simplification back to square one. The concept of The Doctor as a misfit of his society, out on his own, exploring the universe and helping folks and not being especially special was what sold this show to millions of fans all over the world for decades. It's become WAY too dense and complicated now. It's just not fun anymore...

 

[Irvy]

This seems to be a series more and more in need of a complete reboot/ simplification back to square one. The concept of The Doctor as a misfit of his society, out on his own, exploring the universe and helping folks and not being especially special was what sold this show to millions of fans all over the world for decades. It's become WAY too dense and complicated now. It's just not fun anymore...

Actually, I was there for everything from Baker onwards, and mostly it was just silly nonsense, running about, explosions, Daleks, cardboard sets and really bad monsters. It's all about stories, we know very little about Time Lord society, they just come in every now and again and be boring and having meetings and standing around tables. It was all about the Doctor, who was he and where was he from? After this episode, even she couldn't answer those questions. I didn't enjoy last season, but this season has brought me back in, I'm enjoying the story again. It's Doctor Who.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Except.... the Doctor just said that was his time stream, it was really a wibbly wobbly thing generated by the Doctor's own mind. Since he didn't really die on Trenzalore that wasn't really his grave, it was something else but the Doctor didn't have time to explain it all at the time, The Doctor perceived his existence as that track of lives, so that's what Clara had access to. You could just as easily ask why she didn't immediately know Capaldi Doctor and why she'd have such a hard time adjusting to someone she ought to have seen in the "time stream"

But he did die. He absolutely did. Until Clara told the Time Lords, WHO WOULDN'T GIVE HIM REGENERATIONS AFTER THE CENTURIES HE SPENT PROTECTING THE VILLAGE THEY PARKED ON AS A SCAR IN THE UNIVERSE, that they had to rewrite the timeline because the Doctor deserved to go on, because all THEY NEEDED TO KNOW WAS THAT HIS NAME WAS THE DOCTOR!!!! By giving a new regeneration cycle, they undid the future that we witnessed in Name of the Doctor and as the Doctor said in other occassions, Time Lords could do that because they were a higher authority and understood time better than him.

As for Capaldi's Doctor - we all know the story was written to have Clara be the conduit to the audience who would witness an older actor play a part associated with younger fellows up until now. Beyond that, Clara was stubborn to save her Doctor, only for him to be taken away by an older, grumpier man who was even more aloof than Eleven was. It was like with Peri, who pined for the Fifith Doctor after he'd regenerated into the Sixth. Its not uncommon - even Adric was wistful for the Fourth Doctor as he didn't get along as well with the Fifth.

 

[Irvy]

Seriously dude, you need some chamomile tea or an epsom salt bath. There's enough stress in the world right now, let's not go full caps over a tv show

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Why else would anyone come here? I'm allowed to express my opinion without being disrespectful, aren't I? You liked it, I didn't, arguments abound.

 

[Jax]

Tom Baker: "NO, Galifrey Falls More"