Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x05 - "Stardust City Rag"

[Gonzo]

I just hope they don't go the idiotic nuBSG route with "androids which are identical to humans down to the cellular level, but are androids because we say so."

Yeah they are not Androids if they don't have any major synthetic organs within them.

Specifically if the brain isn't synthetic then they aren't Androids at all.

 

[Racefuel]

Are you serious literally every trek has been telling us how humans have evolved the humans act contemporary surely you can see this lol.

And apparently you've missed the many episodes where they show that humans have in fact not evolved as much as GR tried to pretend and that it's more or less just technology that has allowed them to not act on those base desires and flaws.

 

[SJGardner]

Well Dahj and Soji are supposed to be flesh and blood androids, so I take that to mean there is a synthetic brain like Data's connected to a synthetic spine which controls the body.

I mean its possible as the body is really just a bunch of electrical signals after all.

I just wonder at exactly what Dahj and Soji really are, did Maddox finally recreate Soongs positronic brain and then drop it into a vat grown body (not much more than what the Borg did in FC really with Data's face) or was it all grown at the same time from the start which is something else entirely.

Yeah they are not Androids if they don't have any major synthetic organs within them.

Specifically if the brain isn't synthetic then they aren't Androids at all.

With how much Jurati talked about positronics in Remembrance, I think there's definitely positronic computing involved. The "embedded mom AI" and their programming awakening not unlike Data's self-defense programming being activated in Insurrection quite obviously point to programming in the sense of lines of code as opposed to mental conditioning, and that would require programmable hardware, unless Maddox used something akin to Voyager's bioneural circuitry. Seeing the feats Dahj was capable of, I think their muscles might be reinforced with some futuristic material and their skeletons might also be composed of a lightweight, strong and durable ceramic material (they have to weigh about as much as a fully biological human so it can't be a Terminator-like metal skeleton).

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I am a little disappointed that we are not talking about how much this episode was more like TNG. Picard is speaking with more moral authority, not unlike what he did thirty years ago. There are still elements of regret, but he feels more comfortable articulating what is right and wrong. Perhaps that is because the writers were lazy, but it could be that Picard is getting his mojo back.

 

[Mark 2000]

and they already had one on DIS with Mudd and his girlfriend recently.

Yes, the hot nymphification of Stella Mudd. That was a blemish on an otherwise great episode.

All consenting adults have the right to fall in love and act on their emotions. "What makes you think you can dictate how people love each other?" - Soren, The Outcast

Cake said it best ^^^. It's an over used trope. It rarely goes the other way with an older woman/younger man. It's often sexist and has something to do with "daddy issues". It infantilizes young women and makes older women seem undesirable. And, as I already said, he's her mentor. Have you completely missed #MeToo?

 

[Jadeb]

If she's coming back, I'm sure this episode was just set-up for her role in the Borg end of things.

I figure. But that same sort of clunky place-setting has been a big problem for Discovery. This episode reminded me of Discovery in a lot of ways, including the gore, the glamorization of violence, the unfunny comedy and the general tendency to ugly up the franchise. I can’t say I cared for it.

 

[The Old Mixer]

A general comment about the show thus far: I think this is a really good main cast, at least the protagonists (i.e., not including the RomuTwins). They make for an interesting, diverse crew who have a good group chemistry while each member is bringing something to the table. I look forward to the La Sirena crew rescuing Soji from her plotline.

ETA: They also seem to be having a lot of fun.

 

[Gonzo]

With how much Jurati talked about positronics in Remembrance, I think there's definitely positronic computing involved. The "embedded mom AI" and their programming awakening not unlike Data's self-defense programming being activated in Insurrection quite obviously point to programming in the sense of lines of code as opposed to mental conditioning, and that would require programmable hardware, unless Maddox used something akin to Voyager's bioneural circuitry. Seeing the feats Dahj was capable of, I think their muscles might be reinforced with some futuristic material and their skeletons might also be composed of a lightweight, strong and durable ceramic material (they have to weigh about as much as a fully biological human so it can't be a Terminator-like metal skeleton).

Surely a positronic brain would be detected by scanners though, alternatively the brain is human but modified which would make them little more than Borg+.

Dahj was definitely faster and stronger than a human would be, which could just be down to having synthetic muscles and skeleton or Maddox dabbled in a bit of old school TOS genetic engineering.

I guess a flesh and blood android could be organic material covering a synthetic brain, musculature and skeleton but that is a Terminator in all but name.

 

[Greg Cox]

Are you serious literally every trek has been telling us how humans have evolved the humans act contemporary surely you can see this lol.

Honestly, that was mostly just a TNG thing, and mostly when Roddenberry was still well enough to be calling the shots.

Go back and watch TOS. Society has progressed, but it's far from "utopian," and Kirk and crew are fallible human beings who still read as very contemporary.

STAR TREK is optimistic in that it's set in a future that works, more or less, as opposed to some dystopic cautionary fable. It's a future one might actually want to live in, but, at least in TOS, it's not supposed to be some idyllic utopia inhabited by "evolved" paragons of reason and virtue--as DS9 also took pains to point out.

The "utopianism" of early TNG is actually the outlier here. Most Trek shows are more realistic.

 

[Noname Given]

I've skipped the last 50 or so pages, so if someone mentioned some of this already, excuse me.

I gave it a 7.

(I would have given it a 5 - but for the acting capability of Jeri Ryan; and I'm NOT a VOY fan as I only saw her previous work in 'Scorpion' and the VOY finale as overall I gave up watching the show after 'The 37's' - but she was given a number of good scenes in this episode and IMO really nailed them.)

Stuff I liked:
- Jeri Ryan's overall performance here. She's either improved a lot or they REALLY wasted her talent from what little I saw of her on VOY.

- The scene of 7 of 9 coming in to rescue Icheb. (Although later in the episode I have a issue with the backstory setup for that, which made me go "WTF?")

- The whole exchange between 7 of 9 and Picard RE: "Do you feel you regained your Humanity?...", that was short and simple but well acted by both Mr. Stewart and Mrs. Ryan.

Stuff I Didn't Care For:
- Patrick Stewart's whole performance on the surface of the planet as the 'One Eyed Frenchman' or whatever he was supposed to be. If the BAD french accent was a performance choice, it was a BAD one IMO. In the first episode they go out of their way to reinforce 'Picard is French' and have him speak a few lines to his dog. Here he does a French caricature. And even character wise (IE as Picard) it doesn't fit as he's a Diplomat and has been on secret operations for Star Fleet before; so Picard doing such a bad/over teh top job in gthis situation is just plain bad - as IMO was his performance of it.

- While I actually didn't mind how their plan went off, and that it worked (Gansters can be overconfident); the fact that 7 was so easily able to beam right back in again made me go "WTF?" They needed a secreted pattern enhancer to beam out BECAUSE her private area was protected against direct beam ins; and even IF someone left another pattern enhancer behind - the 'ton of high end security' Raffi makes a point of mentioning earlier doesn't detect/disable it? Again while I loved Jeri Ryan as 7 of 9, for me the ability for her to get right back into the exact place she needs to to kill her outright seemed a little to pat/easy. And yes, I saw that she's not getting out as easily as she got in. I REALLY hope they have Ryan as 7 of 9 in another episode this season. (Technically, yes, she has done two - but sorry for me the 10 second tease of "You owe me ship, Picard..." in ep. 4 really shouldn't count.)

- Elnor...Seemed pretty useless so far given how they've tried to build up his reputation as a great warrior and agent of that female Romulan Monk order that trained him. I mean if he grew up in this area, and was properly trained, he'd know a little bit more of the 'lay of the land' or something about the local gang situation - but no he's just standing around wondering why no one really notices him. (Yeh okay, he picked up the guns when the body guards dropped them; but given his actions in teh previous episode, DOES he actually know how to use them?)

- The whole explanation of how Icheb was captured. Sorry but he was a SERVING science officer of a Star Fleet ship. You mean to tell me either these thugs were powerful enough to take out a Star Fleet vessel and have no real repercussions from Star Fleet directly soon after (IE why was it 7 or 9 alone that showed up)? Or worse - that the Captain and crew of a serving Star Fleet ship just ABANDONED Icheb to these gangsters, and didn't mount some kind of rescue attempt or to negotiate a release? I'm no fan of the old TNG 'Utopian' setup; but man, if this is how Star Fleet in 2386 treats/responds to the situation of a captured crewman; yeah the late 24th century is messed up.

- The who Raffi backstory at this point. Okay, she had a family that she effectively abandoned to help Picard in his Romulan Rescue Campaign in Star Fleet. But wow, AFTER the attack either she leaves them too (or maybe they already left her); because her son seems to know the situation RE the Mars attack, and I guess Raffi felt there was a conspiracy which of curse no one believe - or even back then Oh was working with the Tal Shiar (in whatever capacity she was serving in Star Fleet at the time as IDK how long she's been the Head of Star Fleet Intelligence) back then to help initiate the attack and cover their tracks afterwards.
^^^
And if that's the case then it shows Picard as just plain incompetent that he wouldn't even peruse that possibility himself (using his pull as a famous Admiral to follow any possible leads just to be sure) Hell, I just caught TNG S5 - "The First Duty" and Picard is so hell bent on getting to the truth of an accident because Wesley lied there -- but 15 or so years later, suddenly that type of drive has left him; and he just resigns (thinking somehow they won't accept, etc.); instead of staying in Star Fleet and getting to the bottom of the cause of the Mars attack and maybe leveraging that to get something more from Star Fleet? And if that's the case WHY is anyone (and especially Raffi) even still talking to this man and taking anything he says/does seriously?

Also, given how much 'snake weed' and wine Raffi was consuming the day she left with Picard to go to Freecloud and find her son; she has the nerve to claim "Hey, I'm clean now..." Man, if that's how quickly you can kick a bad habit with 24th century medicine...sign me up. My point is: I gotta believe Raffi (who appears t be former Star Fleet Intelligence herself) isn't that naive to believe she could so bold faced lie to her son (who is a medical professional too). I guess I have a hard time believing any intelligent character could think showing up like this out of the blue would change anything. I also have to wonder why she waited sooo long and only now after living in a trailer for 14 years, gets the urge to reconnect in person. (Story wise, yes, it's so she has a reason to join Picard on the ship; but if the writer is trying to make her out to be intelligent; it's a hell of a stretch for me to believe she'd try something like this instead of trying other means of contact first.)

- Dr. Jurati just openly murdering Bruce Maddox IN FRONT OF the EMH A.I. What the hell? By the dialogue she spouts we know she's working with Admiral Oh; not because of a threat, but because of something Oh showed her WRT Dahj and Soji. My point though is: She should be intelligent enough to at least make it look like she tried and his wounds were too severe or something because IDK HOW Picard and Rios wouldn't at least lock her in a cargo container or hell, just throw her off the ship after this. Also, given what the EMH A.I. saw, there's no routine for it projecting itself in front of Rios (the ship captain) and saying "Hey, the Patient in the Med Bay is DYING!" I swear, if the Writing staff has her 'get away' with making this look like some type of accident/being able to claim she 'did everything available, but the wounds were too severe...' (again especially given what the EMH 'saw' and should report the next time it is activated - I'll have lost A LOT of respect for Mr. Michael Chabon as a award winning storyteller.

- Rios honestly comes across as too nonchalant about taking his ship into Romulan territory. For me even more roof he's just a Hologram himself with a backup stored somewhere safe. (And I wish I was joking here.)

And again, all the reliance of utter nostalgia to gloss all this over. Anyone who wants to claim STP is 'great storytelling' who earlier or may still claiming: "ST: D has just been trading on TOS nostalgia..."; please can I have some of what you're smoking as it MUST be some great s**t.

So, yeah, a 7 (Up from a 5 because of Jeri Ryan's WONDERFUL performance here.) YMMV

 

[cooleddie74]

I did like how Picard became his old TNG self by imploring Seven not to murder her because it would squander the humanity she'd struggled to reclaim since being freed from the Collective. That's the Picard we came to know and love until the TNG Movies made him more of an action hero.

 

[zenophite]

I did like her here, but, to me, as someone with no connection to the character, her appearance felt like, well, fan-pleasing filler. It seemed to exist just to set up the last quarter of the episode. I assume she’ll have a more significant role later, but I expected more the way the Borg storyline has been shaping up.

But isn't the whole idea of bringing back Picard 'fan pleasing filler' on the whole?

 

[cooleddie74]

I have no problem with fan service if it's entertaining and done well. Star Trek to a large extent has been fan service ever since TAS brought back every original lead actor but one to reprise their roles and aboard the same starship and wearing the same uniforms.

 

[Lord Garth]

I've skipped the last 50 or so pages, so if someone mentioned some of this already, excuse me.

I gave it a 7.

(I would have given it a 5 - but for the acting capability of Jeri Ryan; and I'm NOT a VOY fan as I only saw her previous work in 'Scorpion' and the VOY finale as overall I gave up watching the show after 'The 37's' - but she was given a number of good scenes in this episode and IMO really nailed them.)

Stuff I liked:
- Jeri Ryan's overall performance here. She's either improved a lot or they REALLY wasted her talent from what little I saw of her on VOY.

- The scene of 7 of 9 coming in to rescue Icheb. (Although later in the episode I have a issue with the backstory setup for that, which made me go "WTF?")

- The whole exchange between 7 of 9 and Picard RE: "Do you feel you regained your Humanity?...", that was short and simple but well acted by both Mr. Stewart and Mrs. Ryan.

Stuff I Didn't Care For:
- Patrick Stewart's whole performance on the surface of the planet as the 'One Eyed Frenchman' or whatever he was supposed to be. If the BAD french accent was a performance choice, it was a BAD one IMO. In the first episode they go out of their way to reinforce 'Picard is French' and have him speak a few lines to his dog. Here he does a French caricature. And even character wise (IE as Picard) it doesn't fit as he's a Diplomat and has been on secret operations for Star Fleet before; so Picard doing such a bad/over teh top job in gthis situation is just plain bad - as IMO was his performance of it.

- While I actually didn't mind how their plan went off, and that it worked (Gansters can be overconfident); the fact that 7 was so easily able to beam right back in again made me go "WTF?" They needed a secreted pattern enhancer to beam out BECAUSE her private area was protected against direct beam ins; and even IF someone left another pattern enhancer behind - the 'ton of high end security' Raffi makes a point of mentioning earlier doesn't detect/disable it? Again while I loved Jeri Ryan as 7 of 9, for me the ability for her to get right back into the exact place she needs to to kill her outright seemed a little to pat/easy. And yes, I saw that she's not getting out as easily as she got in. I REALLY hope they have Ryan as 7 of 9 in another episode this season. (Technically, yes, she has done two - but sorry for me the 10 second tease of "You owe me ship, Picard..." in ep. 4 really shouldn't count.)

- Elnor...Seemed pretty useless so far given how they've tried to build up his reputation as a great warrior and agent of that female Romulan Monk order that trained him. I mean if he grew up in this area, and was properly trained, he'd know a little bit more of the 'lay of the land' or something about the local gang situation - but no he's just standing around wondering why no one really notices him. (Yeh okay, he picked up the guns when the body guards dropped them; but given his actions in teh previous episode, DOES he actually know how to use them?)

- The whole explanation of how Icheb was captured. Sorry but he was a SERVING science officer of a Star Fleet ship. You mean to tell me either these thugs were powerful enough to take out a Star Fleet vessel and have no real repercussions from Star Fleet directly soon after (IE why was it 7 or 9 alone that showed up)? Or worse - that the Captain and crew of a serving Star Fleet ship just ABANDONED Icheb to these gangsters, and didn't mount some kind of rescue attempt or to negotiate a release? I'm no fan of the old TNG 'Utopian' setup; but man, if this is how Star Fleet in 2386 treats/responds to the situation of a captured crewman; yeah the late 24th century is messed up.

- The who Raffi backstory at this point. Okay, she had a family that she effectively abandoned to help Picard in his Romulan Rescue Campaign in Star Fleet. But wow, AFTER the attack either she leaves them too (or maybe they already left her); because her son seems to know the situation RE the Mars attack, and I guess Raffi felt there was a conspiracy which of curse no one believe - or even back then Oh was working with the Tal Shiar (in whatever capacity she was serving in Star Fleet at the time as IDK how long she's been the Head of Star Fleet Intelligence) back then to help initiate the attack and cover their tracks afterwards.
^^^
And if that's the case then it shows Picard as just plain incompetent that he wouldn't even peruse that possibility himself (using his pull as a famous Admiral to follow any possible leads just to be sure) Hell, I just caught TNG S5 - "The First Duty" and Picard is so hell bent on getting to the truth of an accident because Wesley lied there -- but 15 or so years later, suddenly that type of drive has left him; and he just resigns (thinking somehow they won't accept, etc.); instead of staying in Star Fleet and getting to the bottom of the cause of the Mars attack and maybe leveraging that to get something more from Star Fleet? And if that's the case WHY is anyone (and especially Raffi) even still talking to this man and taking anything he says/does seriously?

Also, given how much 'snake weed' and wine Raffi was consuming the day she left with Picard to go to Freecloud and find her son; she has the nerve to claim "Hey, I'm clean now..." Man, if that's how quickly you can kick a bad habit with 24th century medicine...sign me up. My point is: I gotta believe Raffi (who appears t be former Star Fleet Intelligence herself) isn't that naive to believe she could so bold faced lie to her son (who is a medical professional too). I guess I have a hard time believing any intelligent character could think showing up like this out of the blue would change anything. I also have to wonder why she waited sooo long and only now after living in a trailer for 14 years, gets the urge to reconnect in person. (Story wise, yes, it's so she has a reason to join Picard on the ship; but if the writer is trying to make her out to be intelligent; it's a hell of a stretch for me to believe she'd try something like this instead of trying other means of contact first.)

- Dr. Jurati just openly murdering Bruce Maddox IN FRONT OF the EMH A.I. What the hell? By the dialogue she spouts we know she's working with Admiral Oh; not because of a threat, but because of something Oh showed her WRT Danj and Soji. My point though is: She should be intelligent enough to at least make it look like she tried and his wounds were too severe or something because IDK HOW Picard and Rios wouldn't at least lock her in a cargo container or hell, just throw her off the ship after this. Also, given what the EMH A.I. saw, there's no routine for it projecting itself in front of Rios (the ship captain) and saying "Hey, the Patient in the Med Bay is DYING!" I swear, if the Writing staff has her 'get away' with making this look like some type of accident/being able to claim she 'did everything available, but the wounds were too severe...' (again especially given what the EMH 'saw' and should report the next time it is activated - I'll have lost A LOT of respect for Mr. Michael Chabon as a award winning storyteller.

- Rios honestly comes across as too nonchalant about taking his ship into Romulan territory. For me even more roof he's just a Hologram himself with a backup stored somewhere safe. (And I wish I was joking here.)

And again, all the reliance of utter nostalgia to gloss all this over. Anyone who wants to claim STP is 'great storytelling' who earlier or may still claiming: "ST: D has just been trading on TOS nostalgia..."; please can I have some of what you're smoking as it MUST be some great s**t.

So, yeah, a 7 (Up from a 5 because of Jeri Ryan's WONDERFUL performance here.) YMMV

You skipped 50 pages? I don't blame you. But click on this one. You won't be sorry.

 

[SJGardner]

Surely a positronic brain would be detected by scanners though, alternatively the brain is human but modified which would make them little more than Borg+.

Dahj was definitely faster and stronger than a human would be, which could just be down to having synthetic muscles and skeleton or Maddox dabbled in a bit of old school TOS genetic engineering.

I guess a flesh and blood android could be organic material covering a synthetic brain, musculature and skeleton but that is a Terminator in all but name.

If I remember correctly, no one but Data suspected Dr. Tainer being an android until she fell into that hole and her arm dislocated, because she was constantly giving off false bio-signals. If she didn't alert the sensors as synthetic, probably Dahj and Soji wouldn't either.

 

[Jadeb]

But isn't the whole idea of bringing back Picard 'fan pleasing filler' on the whole?

The showrunners claim it’s specifically not that. But I was talking about filler in the context of the storylines set in motion in this show.

 

[Greg Cox]

Pretty sure he would never take direction from her, which is undoubtedly why they went their separate ways!

"Jean-Luc, you stepped on that line."

"The line must be read HERE!"

 

[XCV330]

I can't apply "Sweet" to it, but it was a very seven moment, going to get her killing done in private so that Picard's fragility would not take another hit. We haven't seen the last of her.

Every Trek series has had it's talented outsider character. The one observing the wierd mess from the outside on behalf of viewers.

TOS/TAS has Spock. TNG had Data. DS9, the argument could be made that it was Odo. Voyager.. harder to pin down, but Kes and then 7, in my opinion. ENT had T'Pol, Discovery has Saru. Seven interestingly can't be the talented outsider anymore, in Picard. She's too much a part of making the world around her, now. I suppose perhaps that role goes to Elnor.

 

[Gonzo]

If I remember correctly, no one but Data suspected Dr. Tainer being an android until she fell into that hole and her arm dislocated, because she was constantly giving off false bio-signals. If she didn't alert the sensors as synthetic, probably Dahj and Soji wouldn't either.

True but the whole plot line of the show is that Dahj/Soji are something far more than just another Dr Tainer or Lal with a flesh and blood meatbag body (blatant KOTOR reference).

What exactly has Maddox done that warrants him being killed for it with no opportunity to get a word in edge ways.

What is everyone so afraid of, or has it become a case of the fear being the catalyst rather than the event itself.

 

[Q2UnME]

I also want to call out a positive contribution this ep made to Voyager lore.

Seven and Chakotay are how canonically broken up!

Ponder this. Their relationship ended and it's heavily implied she went and found herself a girlfriend!