Donny's Refit Enterprise Interiors (Version 2.0)

[Mytran]

It's not the dialogue, it's the plot. They can't escape at warp without the mains being online. That's the whole reason Spock sacrifices his life -- because they have to get the warp drive up before Genesis blows and he doesn't have time to put on a radiation suit. So it is the single most integral plot point of the sequence that the mains being offline = no warp drive.

I agree - getting the "mains" online is indeed the focus of the plot, but the way that is achieved by the crew is not done by messing with the "mains" directly.

Partial main power is restored just before they set off for the nebula but the ship is still limited to STL speeds. Following the first exchange inside the nebula Scotty has to take "the mains" offline, yet retains propulsion and fully functional weapons. Whatever "partial mains" power was sustaining, it doesn't seem to have been either of those systems.
Maybe "partial main" power allowed the nacelles to generate the subspace mass reduction field that is so vital in allowing Impulse Engines to achieve 0.25 lightspeed? Certainly, without the "mains" the Enterprise was crawling away from the Reliant at a mere 6,800 KMH. I don't think that the Mutara nebula is literally next door to Regula and so the journey would have to have been made at an appreciable percentage of lightspeed.

It can't be handwaved as an auxiliary system.

If those "auxiliary" systems are the SIF or inertial dampeners, going to warp without them would be suicide!
In fact, it's probably an inbuilt safety feature that having the dilithium power converters offline automatically trips off the warp drive circuits - thus explaining why the "mains" are offline and the best Scotty can do is rig a partial bypass to generate a subspace field.
Once Spock fixes the dilithium circuits, main power is automatically restored.

 

[Christopher]

Whether he got caught with his pants down or not, he asked to take that ship into harm’s way, knowing he was not rigged for action, and without knowing what harm was in his way.

Again, all he knew at that point was that Carol accused Starfleet of taking Genesis from her. He was going to investigate what seemed like an internal Federation matter involving Starfleet bureaucracy; he had no reason to anticipate battle.

If those "auxiliary" systems are the SIF or inertial dampeners, going to warp without them would be suicide!
In fact, it's probably an inbuilt safety feature that having the dilithium power converters offline automatically trips off the warp drive circuits - thus explaining why the "mains" are offline and the best Scotty can do is rig a partial bypass to generate a subspace field.
Once Spock fixes the dilithium circuits, main power is automatically restored.

But if they're just auxiliary power systems, there's no reason there'd be such a lethal soup of radiation given off by them. That only makes sense if it's coming from the main reactor. Again, it was nonsensically scripted as a fission reactor on the verge of meltdown, but it can be rationalized as a matter/antimatter reactor whose shielding is compromised.

Although even that's iffy, since if an M/AM reactor is shut down, it shouldn't be generating radiation. But given the swirl chamber design and the gradual nature of the reaction (per Rick Sternbach's explanation to me), there would logically still be some residual reactants in the intermix shaft, probably still reacting at a limited rate and emitting gamma.

By the same token, it couldn't be a fusion reactor like those used for ship's power in TNG, since those also stop emitting radiation when the reaction stops. And if a fusion reactor shut down, it would just shut down. It's hard to get a fusion reaction going in the first place, let alone to sustain one.

 

[Blip]

Again, all he knew at that point was that Carol accused Starfleet of taking Genesis from her. He was going to investigate what seemed like an internal Federation matter involving Starfleet bureaucracy; he had no reason to anticipate battle.

Christopher your reasoning here seems a little off to me? IIRC Kirk knew that, per Uhura, Carol's transmission was jammed at the source. He later asks Spock how his cadets would perform under real conditions, and subsequently goes on to inform the bridge crew, after discussing with Spock and Starfleet Command, that "an emergency situation has arisen." None of these suggest to me that it's being treated as a matter of internal bureaucracy - though perhaps Kirk didn't anticipate a threat as deadly as Khan.

His later error when faced with the uncommunicative Reliant seemed more indicative of his/Starfleet's misplaced confidence in the impregnability of their "one big happy fleet" (or maybe just a symptom of Kirk being deskbound for so long?) than that he treated the Regula 1 situation as anything less than serious.


Re Engineering I've long given up trying to justify how it plays out onscreen. Now my headcanon simply accepts that the "real" Engineering layout was somewhat different from the dramatic recreation, and that in the real thing Spock was actually working on the M/ARC (as a central component of the "blue swirly Intermix" in its usual location), which then sits within a sealed, transparent aluminum chamber.

I know, I know: just about everybody's mileage probably varies from this! But it's a lot less frustrating than trying to rationalise the dubious treknology of TWOK, to say nothing of trying to fit it into the hull...

 

[Christopher]

Christopher your reasoning here seems a little off to me?

It's the movie that's off, in its retro approach to technology. I can only work with the facts on the ground, try to take something nonsensical (like a 23rd-century starship where vital tasks have to be done manually) and suggest a way to make it slightly less nonsensical. And it's just a suggestion for casual discusion. It's not some thesis I'm defending with my life. If you don't like it, fine. It's not important.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

So, about that art and the recreation, huh?

I feel like I'm in Trek Tech here...

Agreed!

 

[Mytran]

But if they're just auxiliary power systems, there's no reason there'd be such a lethal soup of radiation given off by them. That only makes sense if it's coming from the main reactor. Again, it was nonsensically scripted as a fission reactor on the verge of meltdown, but it can be rationalized as a matter/antimatter reactor whose shielding is compromised.

That's why I put the inverted commas around the label of "auxiliary" systems since I don't see them as being powered by the standard auxiliary reactors, but by finely tuned version of the power output of the M/AM reactors (courtesy of the dilithium crystal circuits). I'd imagine that an FTL-proof structural integrity field is quite an energy hog, after all!
As such, there's plenty of scope for such machinery to leak radiation if sufficiently damaged since it's connected directly to the "mains" (via a vertical tube under the death room).

It's the movie that's off, in its retro approach to technology. I can only work with the facts on the ground, try to take something nonsensical (like a 23rd-century starship where vital tasks have to be done manually) and suggest a way to make it slightly less nonsensical. And it's just a suggestion for casual discusion. It's not some thesis I'm defending with my life. If you don't like it, fine. It's not important.

Hear hear! In the end, this too is just my attempt to match what we see on screen, what is said in dialogue and the rest of the Trek universe at large
I just like to do it while retaining as much of the onscreen material as possible.

 

[Blip]

It's the movie that's off, in its retro approach to technology. I can only work with the facts on the ground, try to take something nonsensical (like a 23rd-century starship where vital tasks have to be done manually) and suggest a way to make it slightly less nonsensical. And it's just a suggestion for casual discusion. It's not some thesis I'm defending with my life. If you don't like it, fine. It's not important.

Um... I'm not suggesting you're defending anything with your life? My comment re: Engineering itself was an open one, directed at everyone in general - and I thought I was pretty clear that I (quite comfortably!) don't expect people to agree with my take.

In fact, I fully agree with you in that TWOK is made of purely faux-scientific baloney (hence why I gave up on Engineering)! Where I disagree with you, was specifically this:

"Again, all he knew at that point was that Carol accused Starfleet of taking Genesis from her. He was going to investigate what seemed like an internal Federation matter involving Starfleet bureaucracy; he had no reason to anticipate battle."

Which I don't think anyone could reasonably see as being suggested by any of the onscreen dialogue.

 

[Christopher]

Where I disagree with you, was specifically this:

"Again, all he knew at that point was that Carol accused Starfleet of taking Genesis from her. He was going to investigate what seemed like an internal Federation matter involving Starfleet bureaucracy; he had no reason to anticipate battle."

Which I don't think anyone could reasonably see as being suggested by any of the onscreen dialogue.

I don't see how you could assume otherwise. Carol contacts him and accuses him of taking Genesis from her. She doesn't say there's an enemy taking it, she claims Starfleet is taking it and accuses Kirk of giving the order. The transmission is jammed, but that could be due to a natural phenomenon or a malfunction, so it's not evidence of enemy action. It's just part of the mystery that needs to be investigated

Subsequently, Kirk tells Spock, "Something may be wrong at Regula I. We've been ordered to investigate." "Something may be wrong." That hardly constitutes being "ordered into battle." Also, aridas was incorrect to say "he asked to take that ship into harm’s way." Kirk's next line is "I told Starfleet all we had was a boatload of children, but...". He objected to taking the cadet ship into the situation, even though he didn't know for sure there would be danger, but he was overruled by Starfleet Command.

And yes, he asks Spock how the cadets would respond "under real pressure," but Starfleet officers face many kinds of pressure other than armed combat. For all he knew, he was going to find himself embroiled in a confrontation with Starfleet Intelligence or some political jockeying with a gung-ho admiral trying to weaponize Genesis. Plenty of potential pressure there for cadets getting caught in the middle.

 

[aridas sofia]

I don't see how you could assume otherwise. Carol contacts him and accuses him of taking Genesis from her. She doesn't say there's an enemy taking it, she claims Starfleet is taking it and accuses Kirk of giving the order. The transmission is jammed, but that could be due to a natural phenomenon or a malfunction, so it's not evidence of enemy action. It's just part of the mystery that needs to be investigated

Subsequently, Kirk tells Spock, "Something may be wrong at Regula I. We've been ordered to investigate." "Something may be wrong." That hardly constitutes being "ordered into battle." Also, aridas was incorrect to say "he asked to take that ship into harm’s way." Kirk's next line is "I told Starfleet all we had was a boatload of children, but...". He objected to taking the cadet ship into the situation, even though he didn't know for sure there would be danger, but he was overruled by Starfleet Command.

And yes, he asks Spock how the cadets would respond "under real pressure," but Starfleet officers face many kinds of pressure other than armed combat. For all he knew, he was going to find himself embroiled in a confrontation with Starfleet Intelligence or some political jockeying with a gung-ho admiral trying to weaponize Genesis. Plenty of potential pressure there for cadets getting caught in the middle.

You can’t conclude any of this from the dialogue. It is open ended. Kirk could just as easily have been the one requesting to take the ship to investigate, or to rendezvous with another ship and take IT to investigate. HE has been contacted. Not Starfleet. HE is reporting what he knows and is proposing something or being told something. But what are we to believe given it is Carol Marcus and her son? That Kirk is willing to sit on his butt and let another ship go?

“I told Starfleet all we had was a boatload of children, but..." is as clear as it needs to be. Kirk was asking to go into action with SOME ship, and because Enterprise is once again “the only ship in the quadrant” it has to be Enterprise, DESPITE having a ship outfitted as a training vessel for a cadet crew.

Because, he is by nature a man of action. Perhaps a tired, old man of action. But as Spock says just after, ”Commanding a starship is your first best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material.” He still is who he is. He just doesn’t realize it.

 

[Christopher]

The point is, it is incorrect to say the ship was "ordered into battle." The fact that they were not expecting battle is an important plot point, because it's why Khan was able to ambush them. They were going to investigate a mystery. "Something may be wrong at Regula I." That's all they knew at that point.

 

[Michael]

And, don’t we have an actual moderator to deal with whether a post is spam?

You do, yes. A prolonged discussion in the Fan Art forum about more technical aspects is okay by me. (And if I remember correctly – please correct me if I'm wrong – @Donny has indicated in the past that he's fine with these kind of discussions in his threads as well.)

What's not okay with me is digressing into unnecessarily dogmatic back-and-forths that certainly no-one needs in a fun thread about a virtual spaceship replica. I would like for everyone to watch their tone and turn all of this down a notch. Please let's be grown-ups about this, thank you.

 

[aridas sofia]

The point is, it is incorrect to say the ship was "ordered into battle." The fact that they were not expecting battle is an important plot point, because it's why Khan was able to ambush them. They were going to investigate a mystery. "Something may be wrong at Regula I." That's all they knew at that point.

Yes I agree- that was why I corrected that to “ordered into action” in a later post. I think the fact that torpedo room is the way it is - Age of Sail like - is first and foremost stylistic. But it also makes the point that the ship itself is not ready for action. Like Kirk. That’s the main point- the design should be interpreted as something that is not normal. We only have a glimpse of what is “normal” in the David Kimble cutaway.

I disagree with your interpretation of Kirk’s intentions once he finds out something is wrong, but we can discuss that elsewhere.

 

[Christopher]

Yes I agree- that was why I corrected that to “ordered into action” in a later post. I think the fact that torpedo room is the way it is - Age of Sail like - is first and foremost stylistic. But it also makes the point that the ship itself is not ready for action. Like Kirk. That’s the main point- the design should be interpreted as something that is not normal. We only have a glimpse of what is “normal” in the David Kimble cutaway.

Then we're in agreement after all. The exact specifics of Kirk's intentions are beside the point; all I meant to convey was that it wasn't an unambiguous combat situation and thus wasn't inconsistent with a cadet vessel being sent in.

 

[Maurice]

So Donny, I mean to ask about the light spots on the floor (seen here in blue).

It looks like they are projected down, so just curious what your thinking was (if any) on their source.

 

[Christopher]

It looks like they are projected down, so just curious what your thinking was (if any) on their source.

From the alternating two-and-three arrangement, and from the way they're stretched out as if lit from an angle, it looks pretty clear to me that they're from the retractable rods in the hex panels. Although the ones closest to the control panels in this image don't seem to be from the same source as the others.

 

[cardinal biggles]

They're coming up through the floor grating. The lights are in different spots, and the way they shift doesn't match up with the blinking pattern of the retractable rods when they're flashing as Spock enters the chamber.

We start to get a good view of the blinking rods at around 3:03 as Spock argues with McCoy; we get a good look at the lights shifting between blue and white starting around 4:08.

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[DrCorby]

They're coming up through the floor grating. The lights are in different spots, and the way they shift doesn't match up with the blinking pattern of the retractable rods when they're flashing as Spock enters the chamber.

I wondered if they were coming up through the grating. It looks like one is hitting the underside of the left-hand console.

 

[Tallguy]

Yes I agree- that was why I corrected that to “ordered into action” in a later post. I think the fact that torpedo room is the way it is - Age of Sail like - is first and foremost stylistic. But it also makes the point that the ship itself is not ready for action. Like Kirk. That’s the main point- the design should be interpreted as something that is not normal. We only have a glimpse of what is “normal” in the David Kimble cutaway.

I disagree with your interpretation of Kirk’s intentions once he finds out something is wrong, but we can discuss that elsewhere.

• The problem with the Enterprise is that it is a "boatload of children" not that it isn't a real starship anymore. Heck, McCoy indicated that the Enterprise would be put back into service (in a line that bugged me even when I was 13!)
• The stylistic choices and excesses are what they are. They are there for visual interest and arguably fill the style side of the column more than the substance. I'd like to read Kirk's foreword to the novel of THIS movie!
• Starfleet idiocy is a constant, going back to the series. I don't know why anyone is so proud to serve in that ridiculous organization.
• There's a lot of motivation going on with Kirk I suppose. On the one hand it is true that Kirk asks about the cadets under "real" conditions. (And Spock replies with Marx. Nice one, Nick.) On the other hand he downplays the situation to Spock "It's probably nothing."
• I've been arguing the merits of this movie with various people on this board for 15 years. Nobody is changing their minds today.

And of course: Way to go @Donny! It's lovely!

(And nice job @Michael , thank you.)

 

[Donny]

So Donny, I mean to ask about the light spots on the floor (seen here in blue).

It looks like they are projected down, so just curious what your thinking was (if any) on their source.

It's my understanding that there were spotlights underneath the grating on the actual set, alternating blue and white ones.

However, I tried several different ways to add these lights to my renders, and the only thing that looked "correct" is to NOT have a visible "source" underneath, and just have the lights themselves right under the grating. The grating isn't an actual 3D mesh per se, but it a texture with simulated height, so it didn't look correct unless I placed omni-directional lights directly underneath the grating plane, and some of that light unfortunately spills up onto the top. It's tricky working with a game engine in this respect, so I had to go with what looked best, out of three or four different techniques I tried.

Regarding all the tech discussion: fine by me as long as we keep is civil, and as long as we're not beating a dead horse.

I've stopped caring too much about how things actually work. It's sci-fi, it's a movie from the 80s, and they did a damn good job despite some hiccups here and there. What matters to me is that I enjoy indulging in the film, warts and all. I portray the dilithium reactor room because I like the way it looks and it's a vital part to the TWOK set. And besides, I'm doing a TMP version (sans reactor room) as well, to please those that take issue with the TWOK design choices (and my own desire to have dedicated TMP versions of all the sets).

I understand there are those of us that like to debate this stuff end to end, and that's fine. I just prefer to take in the beauty of the retro aesthetics and then create replicas for you people to drool over.

When it does make sense, great! When it makes dramatic sense too, awesome! When it looks cool, yippee! When it doesn't make sense, that's too bad! When it doesn't make sense but still looks cool, I can live with that!

 

[aridas sofia]

Donny do you plan to make that David Kimble torpedo room from his cutaway, or will this Klingon one stand in for TMP as well?

Also is there any kind of TMP analog to this TWOK “Spock death chamber”?