Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends"

[Timo]

Um, remember a portion of the TOS PD was "No space flight capability AND (not or, and ) no knowledge of life on other worlds".

Yeah, I remember - nothing of the sort was said in TOS. The only wording we ever got was "If they are at the 1960s levels of technology by some strange coincidence, don't carry your phasers outside your pants". And then they did.

So if a civilization had spaceflight OR already had knowledge of life on other worlds (regardless of technological capacity) the PD didn't apply.

Kirk never admitted to it applying no matter what, so we didn't quite find out whether that would have been true...

DS9 tells us the occupation began 60 years earlier and the Federation stood by and watched.

And also that the Bajorans stood by and watched, some of them apparently being very happy about being so nicely embraced by Cardassia.

Yes, they fought a open/hot war with Cardassia (wwhich was supposedly going on all throughout the first 3 seasons of TNG

...And possibly began at least a decade prior, too. I guess Bajor is a prime example of why the UFP shouldn't always interfere. It just ends in carnage that helps nobody.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crewman6]

I think a lot of people forget that in the 2350's to early 2360's the Federation was indeed at war with the Cardassian Union

Unfortunately, the episode "Ensign Ro" explicitly states that the reasons the UFP couldn't/didn't help Bajor was due to the Prime Directive, since the Occupation took place "within the borders" of Cardassia.

Which makes no fucking sense. How could the invasion and occupation of a sovereign world be considered an "internal" affair of Cardassian or within Cardassia's "borders?" It was a really, really dumb fucking line and a grotesque misinterpretation of the PD.

 

[ITDUDE]

Does that mean they hate all TOS movies including TMP.

Pff, I'm sure there are those that don't consider anything after season 2 of TOS as "real" Star Trek

 

[Timo]

Well, DS9 made good use of that. It wasn't an "invasion" or an "occupation" yet when it happened. And when it had, it was an "internal matter".

It's how the world today works, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr Awe]

I gave it an 8. A step down from the previous episode. Stewart still great. But, the pacing has slowed a bit too much. I'm all for letting a story breathe, but they've overdone that. This episode should've been about putting the new crew together. The episode spun its wheels a bit re-establishing what we already knew. There was some forward motion. We learned who is behind the Romulan plot on Earth. And, that they're trying to get info from what's her face.

Big clue dropped. The attack on Mars was 14 years ago. And, the Borg drones have been suspended for 14 years. I've postulated before that somehow the Queen, or collective, reached out to cause the Synth attack in a desperate attempt to hurt the Romulans.

 

[Cap'n Calhoun]

Does that mean they hate all TOS movies including TMP. Also did they not notice that model itself changed within TOS.(the nacelles)

They (in general) tend to take bigger issue with changes that are "retcons" and harder to resolve in-universe as change over time.

E.g., the 1701 now not only looks the way it did in Discovery, but it presumably always looked that way, not the way we've seen before. (And that does seem to be the intent since that's the design in "Ephraim and Dot.")

The Klingons are redesigned, and now we're expected to believe that they always looked that way. (Earlier changes are glossed over thanks to the Enterprise episode "explaining" it, so Discovery is apparently horrendous because it resurfaced this "problem" that existed from 1979-2005.)

I have mixed feelings on that stuff myself. If you want to dive much deeper I'd recommend a separate thread, as this topic can very easily take over the whole discussion.

 

[SJGardner]

Pff, I'm sure there are those that don't consider anything after season 2 of TOS as "real" Star Trek

Nothing after Where No Man Has Gone Before is 'Real Star Trek.' I don't know who this James T. Kirk is, but he sure ain't my captain.

 

[Cap'n Calhoun]

I think it's obvious Commodore Oh is going to kill the dog Number One.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I see Bajor as one of the strongest arguments to interfere. A case of one side completely dominating and enslaving another defenseless side. But only if Bajor directly asked for the help.

The problem with intervening after the invasion was complete though has other political optics that would make it harder to get the Klingons and Romulans to trust them. Like Kronos may think, is the Federation going to side with our rebels too?

I have less problem with Disco changing Klingons appearance and more with changing it to something that looks awful.

 

[Cap'n Calhoun]

Nothing after Where No Man Has Gone Before is 'Real Star Trek.' I don't know who this James T. Kirk is, but he sure ain't my captain.

What's this "Where No Man Has Gone Before"? Pretty sure Chris Pike was the only captain of the Enterprise, and that's how it should stay. None of this retconning nonsense with bridge redesigns and colorful uniforms and Spock being Number One all of a sudden.

 

[Yminale]

Unfortunately, the episode "Ensign Ro" explicitly states that the reasons the UFP couldn't/didn't help Bajor was due to the Prime Directive, since the Occupation took place "within the borders" of Cardassia.

The Federation didn't explicitly help. Who knows what the Federation did behind close doors. They may have done everything from applying sanctions to helping out the Bajoran resistance in secret. Whatever they did must have worked since the Cardassians left Bajor without an external conflict. People laugh at the Federation Diplomatic corp but they are the most effective group outside of Starfleet.

 

[eschaton]

Big clue dropped. The attack on Mars was 14 years ago. And, the Borg drones have been suspended for 14 years. I've postulated before that somehow the Queen, or collective, reached out to cause the Synth attack in a desperate attempt to hurt the Romulans.

The chalkboard says 5843 days without an assimilation though - which means the cube has been inactive for 16 years, not 14.

I am guessing maybe they briefly woke up that drone two years after they took over the cube, then put it back to sleep.

 

[Timo]

Romulan days!

No wonder they were so cranky all the time, with so much less sleep.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lord Garth]

The chalkboard says 5843 days without an assimilation though - which means the cube has inactive for 16 years, not 14.

I hope they have a flashback explaining what happened in 2383. I'm guessing the structure of Picard is that every episode will begin with a flashback, dream, or some other type of thing not in the "here and now", so we might actually see such a flashback. I imagine Seven and Hugh might know something about this abandoned Cube. There's probably a story there.

 

[Yistaan]

She'll use a Varon-T disruptor to do it too, and transmit the holo of it to Picard, to induce a full fledged neurological breakdown. Maybe say, "And your little dog too!" with a wicked witch of the west laugh.

 

[Gonzo]

Same here. This one felt unusually short and cut off.

Probably because its the middle one of the three.

 

[Yminale]

I see Bajor as one of the strongest arguments to interfere. A case of one side completely dominating and enslaving another defenseless side.

That would force the Federation in a series of endless wars (yeah I know that's what happens anyway what I can say the writers aren't very creative). Remember the Federation has other means to solve their problems.

 

[SJGardner]

Romulan days!

No wonder they were so cranky all the time, with so much less sleep.

Timo Saloniemi

Not just days, but really, does anybody actually know how long a Romulan year is? Has it ever been established?

 

[tomswift2002]

I just noticed that this episode contradicts “The Defector”. In “The Defector”, Romulan Admiral Jarok tells Data that he knows a bunch of Romulan cyberneticists who would love to examine Data, but in this episode it’s claimed that the Romulan never pursed or had any cybernetics experts.

 

[Vger23]

She'll use a Varon-T disruptor to do it too, and transmit the holo of it to Picard, to induce a full fledged neurological breakdown. Maybe say, "And your little dog too!" with a wicked witch of the west laugh.

Shouldn't be hard....given the defect in his parietal lobe.

I just noticed that this episode contradicts “The Defector”. In “The Defector”, Romulan Admiral Jarok tells Data that he knows a bunch of Romulan cyberneticists who would love to examine Data, but in this episode it’s claimed that the Romulan never pursed or had any cybernetics experts.

They had plenty. But their version of a cyberneticist was obviously very different than the Federation's. They were most likely tasked with understanding the nature of cybernetic organisms to enable the Romulans to more efficiently defeat or destroy them.

Makes Data's repulsed reaction even more poignant now, doesn't it?