Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends"

[SJGardner]

The Prime Directive ONLY applies to civilizations that are not warp/FTL capable AND they must not have any knowledge of warp/FTL civilizations. If a civilization becomes aware of Warp/FTL civilization then the PD does not apply. PD would not apply to Romulans or Cardassians.

And that's why I keep scratching my head whenever people in-universe and IRL keep citing the PD for matters concerning the Romulans or Cardassians.

Except that's HOW the PD was interpreted during the ENTIRE run of TNG (No the PD wasn't like that in TOS. In TOS the PD only protected primitive civilizations who had to spaceflight capability and no knowledge that life existed on other worlds) - but during TNG's heyday, the PD was used to justify:

- Not letting Worf have PROOF the Duras family were traitors to the Klingon empire because Picard saw it as using Federation resources to effect political change in the Klingon Empire (Yes, he ultimately relented, but not before giving a long winded self serving lecture to Lt. Worf.)

- The Federation standing by and watching as Cardassia invaded Bajor and killed MILLIONS of Bajorans (and from various comments in various episodes on both TNG and DS9 -- the Bajorans were a space faring civilization before Earth was.)

To be fair, both of these examples make it seem as if the PD was just a handy blanket rule politicians and corrupt Starfleet brass could use to absolve themselves of taking responsibility for issues that would be politically or diplomatically inconvenient. It would be geopolitically inconvenient to cause a political crisis in the Klingon Empire, and Bajor, being a single-system civilization with no known strategic value is simply not worth the resources they'd have to sarifice for its liberation. If they were worth it, they would've fought the war until they captured Bajor, but they didn't. Ugly, dirty politics and self-righteous hypocrisy, just like it has always been.

 

[eschaton]

Side note: I absolutely LOVE the Romulan make-up in this series. The ears, brows, etc. are perfect. I like that there is a very mild forehead prosthetic that slightly differentiates some from Vulcans but isn't as crappy and obtrusive as the ones in TNG. I also like that they have varied hair styles, instead of the awful haircuts they've had in the past.

One thing to note is that in the prequel comics both of the Tal Shiar agents who eventually come to live on Picard's estate have "normal Romulan" haircuts. Thus it seems to me the show is heavily implying that it was the totalitarian nature of the Romulan state during the TNG era which resulted in such conformity in terms of outfits and hairstyles.

 

[Yminale]

This matches my opinion exactly.

TMP Enterprise > Disco Enterprise > Abrams Enterprise

I still don't understand why people are so freaked out about it. It's obvious that the holographic display is showing random Enterprises and it's not some statement that Disc is better than TNG.

 

[Vger23]

One thing to note is that in the prequel comics both of the Tal Shiar agents who eventually come to live on Picard's estate have "normal Romulan" haircuts. Thus it seems to me the show is heavily implying that it was the totalitarian nature of the Romulan state during the TNG era which resulted in such conformity in terms of outfits and hairstyles.

Hmmm....I like that idea...!

 

[Vger23]

I still don't understand why people are so freaked out about it. It's obvious that the holographic display is showing random Enterprises and it's not some statement that Disc is better than TNG.

Because people enjoy mock outrage and losing their minds over just about anything.

"The sound effect of the ready room door opening wasn't like that in TNG! ARRRGGGGGG!!!! These producers don't care about Star Trek or the fans!!!"

 

[Yminale]

And that's why I keep scratching my head whenever people in-universe and IRL keep citing the PD for matters concerning the Romulans or Cardassians.

You have to blame the writers for confusing the Prime Directive with the Federation General principle of non-interference of non-member species. One is a law while the other is just a guideline the Feds whip out when it's political convenient.

 

[SJGardner]

One thing to note is that in the prequel comics both of the Tal Shiar agents who eventually come to live on Picard's estate have "normal Romulan" haircuts. Thus it seems to me the show is heavily implying that it was the totalitarian nature of the Romulan state during the TNG era which resulted in such conformity in terms of outfits and hairstyles.

That just reminded me of that special broadcast on North Korean state TV that listed 8-10 state-approved hairstyles citizens could choose from.

 

[Yistaan]

So Commodore Oh is a Romulan posing as a Vulcan most likely. For her to have reached Commodore, she'd have been a long term deep cover agent in Starfleet for a very long time, at least 15 years for sure.

So... as she's posing as a Vulcan, is she the one responsible for getting the Vulcan Science Academy ship to Spock for the red matter? Also, surely she would have objected to abandoning Romulus to the supernova also (although not revealing her true reasons for doing so, that she's a Romulan herself).

If she and the Zhat Vash are responsible for the android sabotage, why at the cost of their own homeworld and empire?

This character has a lot of questions that need to be answered.

 

[Vger23]

That just reminded me of that special broadcast on North Korean state TV that listed 8-10 state-approved hairstyles citizens could choose from.

I think I'll try that with my wife at home.


See how it goes.

 

[Cap'n Calhoun]

This matches my opinion exactly.

TMP Enterprise > Disco Enterprise > Abrams Enterprise

Love the redesign myself. It's relatively subtle, but effective.

The two types of complaints I see are usually:
1. *Any* visual redesign is bad and spits on not only TOS, but the other shows that showed it with no redesign.
2. People who take out rulers and figure out the exact measurements of the ships (and, in this case, see that the redesign is *much* larger than the original).

I see where they're coming from, and I can see why the people who run the fansites that dissect the minutiae would have a bigger stake in it (and I've visited those sites for reference plenty of times, so not knocking them), but I can't bring myself to care that much. It looks nice. I'm happy.

 

[Kor]

Side note: I absolutely LOVE the Romulan make-up in this series. The ears, brows, etc. are perfect. I like that there is a very mild forehead prosthetic that slightly differentiates some from Vulcans but isn't as crappy and obtrusive as the ones in TNG. I also like that they have varied hair styles, instead of the awful haircuts they've had in the past.

I think the most built-up Romulan forehead was the doctor who kept calling the unknown species of Borg drone "the nameless." But that forehead still looked much better than the TNG type.

Off Topic: Can someone explain to me why the hate on the Enterprise shown on Discovery. I liked it and miles better than the ugly abortion that was Abramprise. Still think TMP is the best.

I think it's mainly because it retcons the appearance of something that already had an established (and iconic) canonical visual design within this specific continuity.

Kor

 

[Gonzo]

Still not trusting Laris and Zhaban. But especially Laris...

I am veering more towards Zhaban, he really didnt want to talk about Zhat Vash but Laris was fine with it.

May end up being neither of them which is fine, assuming they survive the attack on the Chateau which is bound to be coming once Commodore O realises Picard has gone, they will go to the Chateau to look for clues.

I like both of them so I hope they dont get bumped off.

As for Picard I would like him to get a proper sendoff, whether that is one season or three is really up to Patrick Stewart and how much he is able or wants to do.

I do expect at least one spinoff from Picard, or they may even continue the show as Picard but without him in it, they could probably get away with that if Soji ends up being his biological daughter in some way, after all whoever made her had to get the biological components from somewhere.

Could be Maddox but it could also be Picard himself, if so the Picard title would still be valid even without Jean-Luc in it, Soji Picard perhaps.

 

[Crewman6]

Well the writers clearly screwed up confusing the Prime Directive with the Federation general policy of non-interference in internal affairs of other species. I blame TOS for not clarifying it earlier.

Why? Those are two different aspects of the same general directive. The PD was invoked for both purposes. It basically means "we don't screw with other cultures."

 

[Noname Given]

Actually, no. In TOS, the PD protected nobody but our heroes. Primitives could be rather freely contacted, involved in commercial and political deals, and told how to behave; the PD just said Starfleet agents should not unduly reveal themselves on infiltration missions. It was the UFP members that Kirk couldn't touch, even if those happened to practice slavery and torture.

Um, remember a portion of the TOS PD was "No space flight capability AND (not or, and ) no knowledge of life on other worlds".

So if a civilization had spaceflight OR already had knowledge of life on other worlds (regardless of technological capacity) the PD didn't apply.

What sort of nonsense is this? The UFP didn't "stand by". It fought a frigging WAR with Cardassia!

And a fat lot of good it did to Bajor. Cardassians seemed to lose every fight we ever saw or heard of, but they just wouldn't give up. What more could the UFP have done?

Timo Saloniemi

DS9 tells us the occupation began 60 years earlier and the Federation stood by and watched. Yes, they fought a open/hot war with Cardassia (wwhich was supposedly going on all throughout the first 3 seasons of TNG - although surprisingly that fact was never mentioned to the audience until TNG S4 - "The Wounded"

Also, from TNG S5 - "Ensign Ro":
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/203.htm

KEEVE: I'm sorry, I don't wish to help you. Don't misunderstand. I for one believe the raid on the Federation outpost was poor judgment. You are innocent bystanders, and I cannot condone violence against those who are not our enemies.

PICARD: Then I don't understand why you are unwilling?

KEEVE: Because you are innocent bystanders. You were innocent bystanders for decades as the Cardassians took our homes, as they violated and tortured our people in the most hideous ways imaginable, as we were forced to flee.

PICARD: We were saddened by those events but they occurred within the designated borders of the Cardassian Empire.

KEEVE: And the Federation is pledged not to interfere in the internal affairs of others. How convenient that must be for you, to turn a deaf ear to those who suffer behind a line on a map.

PICARD: Well, I'm not here to debate Federation policy with you, but I can offer you assistance.

 

[Timo]

Love the redesign myself. It's relatively subtle, but effective.

The two types of complaints I see are usually:
1. *Any* visual redesign is bad and spits on not only TOS, but the other shows that showed it with no redesign.
2. People who take out rulers and figure out the exact measurements of the ships (and, in this case, see that the redesign is *much* larger than the original).

I see where they're coming from, and I can see why the people who run the fansites that dissect the minutiae would have a bigger stake in it (and I've visited those sites for reference plenty of times, so not knocking them), but I can't bring myself to care that much. It looks nice. I'm happy.

I guess my one complaint is that the redesign was beautifully subtle originally - and then TPTB came and said "no can do" and insisted on the angled pylons. It's a yearning for what might have been, more than a desire to see the current design somehow erased from existence.

Oh, well. We did see a diagram of that subtle redesign on the computer screens. So it may have existed previously - the computer just didn't get the memo.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Yistaan]

May end up being neither of them which is fine, assuming they survive the attack on the Chateau which is bound to be coming once Commodore O realises Picard has gone, they will go to the Chateau to look for clues..

I think it's obvious Commodore Oh is going to kill the dog Number One.

 

[ITDUDE]

That just reminded me of that special broadcast on North Korean state TV that listed 8-10 state-approved hairstyles citizens could choose from.

I thought you were sarcastic... until I googled.
Holy Feck!
https://newsfeed.time.com/2013/02/25/these-are-north-koreas-28-state-approved-hairstyles/

 

[Yminale]

1. *Any* visual redesign is bad and spits on not only TOS, but the other shows that showed it with no redesign.

Does that mean they hate all TOS movies including TMP. Also did they not notice that model itself changed within TOS.(the nacelles)

2. People who take out rulers and figure out the exact measurements of the ships (and, in this case, see that the redesign is *much* larger than the original).

Ugh. I hated that argument during DS9 and Voyager.

 

[Gonzo]

I think it's obvious Commodore Oh is going to kill the dog Number One.

I think the attack will happen but its hard to say how it will turn out, a lot depends on whether or not they have any real use for the dog in the show plot wise moving forward.

 

[Rahul]

Side note: I absolutely LOVE the Romulan make-up in this series. The ears, brows, etc. are perfect. I like that there is a very mild forehead prosthetic that slightly differentiates some from Vulcans but isn't as crappy and obtrusive as the ones in TNG. I also like that they have varied hair styles, instead of the awful haircuts they've had in the past.

Absolutely, 100% agreed!
I friggin' love everything about this shows' Romulans. The older couple on Picad's estate are already some of my favourite Trek characters overall. I love the variety. The "hot" Romulan. The creepy ships. The creepy jobs. And that the most freakishly evil looking Romulan was, like, the tour guide for the newbies. Damn, I just love how this show handles, well, everything.

One thing to note is that in the prequel comics both of the Tal Shiar agents who eventually come to live on Picard's estate have "normal Romulan" haircuts. Thus it seems to me the show is heavily implying that it was the totalitarian nature of the Romulan state during the TNG era which resulted in such conformity in terms of outfits and hairstyles.

And this just makes it even 1000 times better!
This show is really good at changing up everything. And at the same time integrating these changes seamlessly with previous Trek. Fuck, even the ST09 supernova - arguably the dumbest thing about that crazy entertaining but kinda' stupid movie - now not only makes sense - scientifically, world-building wise, scope-wise for such a dramatic event - but it actually feels important and earned. And all that is done as friggin' BACKSTORY!