Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends"

[KennyB]

Fair enough. I guess pre-warp people don't even have the capacity for help, but ultimately Picard can't be responsible for that. I see how it makes sense, kind of.

In the comic Picard is also standing up for natives residing on Romulan planets. Romulan only want to evacuate the Romulan population and leave the natives to die. There’s lots in play here that we have not seen yet.

 

[Racefuel]

Just a pet peeve of mine:



No, it's never stated in TNG, or TOS, DS9 or VOY or the movies for that matter, that warp drive must precede first contact. Instead, many episodes suggest that once a species acquires warp drive, or is about to, first contact becomes inevitable, and there's no advantage to the UFP holding back when the intrepid warp explorers will run into somebody else anyway.

The first episode ever to actually associate warp drive and first contact with each other in direct dialogue is, amazingly enough, DSC "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum", where we finally hear this:



Of course, Starfleet will readily reveal itself to sentient beings who have already been contacted by other space aliens, even if the invention of warp drive is still far in their future. Indeed, Kirk often contacted folks who weren't struggling with inventing the steam engine yet. And indeed Burnham here contacts the locals as fait accomplii.

But TNG has a role to play here, too. In the suddenly awfully relevant "Measure of a Man", he speaks of making contact with the strange alien civilization known as Data! Said civilization probably knows how to build a warp engine, but as far as we can tell, Data has built none...

Timo Saloniemi

Data was found on Omicron Theta, a federation colony. Picard speaks of seeking out new life and new civilizations .."AND THERE HE SITS!" pointing at Data..however it was clear that Data was *built* by Soong on a federation colony and thus was already under the umbrella of the PD.

But nice try

 

[Noname Given]

There's a difference between stopping a force that is going from planet to planet killing both Federation and non-Federation citizens alike...and violating the Prime Directive to interfere in a species natural course in life.

So, Supernova AREN'T naturally occurring events in space...NASA would love to know that as it would CHANGE our understanding of the Universe.

 

[cooleddie74]

Not if you factor over 200 years of Cold War, periodic warfare and suspicion and paranoia into the equation. The Federation was founded at least in part as a response to Romulan aggression and only rarely between ENT and NEM had the Star Empire ever behaved constructively or peacefully to the other powers of the Alpha Quadrant.

I can understand why 14 members of the Federation objected, at least on principle.

 

[SJGardner]

Apples and Oranges. Romulans are members of the galactic community and are equals amongst them. I'm sure it's not only Picard that wanted to help them, he was just the face of the movement.

Exactly. My biggest problem with this "absolutely no intervention of any kind ever" interpretation of the Prime Directive is that it makes no sense at all if you have already established diplomatic relations with them. Seriously, by that logic, the Prime Directive could be extended to mean that the mere act of visiting Cardassia as a tourist or buying something from a Romulan merchant could constitute contamination of their cultural development. If you're already full members of the galactic stage, an alien empire is basically just another country in the geopolitical sense. Why couldn't you lend aid to a foreign country?

 

[Yminale]

In the comic Picard is also standing up for natives residing on Romulan planets. Romulan only want to evacuate the Romulan population and leave the natives to die. There’s lots in play here that we have not seen yet.

First contact was made by the Romulans therefore PD no longer applies.

 

[Crewman6]

That would be weird. Rizzo already is the secret Romulan of the plot and she is specifically disguised in order to accomplish that.

I agree it would be weird and redundant. Just really, really hoping it's not some S31 nonsense.

She is clearly Rizzo's boss, despite what Rizzo says to Narek and the Commodore also says "you nearly blew OUR cover." So.......it's unclear at the moment (by design.)

 

[Crewman6]

No, you're just wrong. EU has government, it is called European Commission. UFP is much more analogous to EU than USA. It is a collective of different states with their own traditions an political cultures. If a member state wants to leave for stupid reasons, they can.

my point is that if UFP members can withdraw from the Federation over one single political disagreement, then then UFP would never stand for hundreds of years. It just wouldn't.

 

[Yminale]

Exactly. My biggest problem with this "absolutely no intervention of any kind ever" interpretation of the Prime Directive is that it makes no sense at all if you have already established diplomatic relations with them.

The Prime Directive ONLY applies to civilizations that are not warp/FTL capable AND they must not have any knowledge of warp/FTL civilizations. If a civilization becomes aware of Warp/FTL civilization then the PD does not apply. PD would not apply to Romulans or Cardassians.

 

[eschaton]

my point is that if UFP members can withdraw from the Federation over one single political disagreement, then then UFP would never stand for hundreds of years. It just wouldn't.

On one hand, you're correct, but on the other hand - given how dimly the Federation seems to look on coercion - I could never see the Federation actively opposing a secessionist movement if the majority of the populace truly supported it.

 

[Timo]

^^Totally incorrect. The PD has been quoted as a factor in relations between the UFP and Cardassia (DS9 Circle trilogy), or the UFP and the Klingon Empire (TNG "Redemption"), too. It's just a general expression for noninterference policies, regardless of technology level.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vger23]

BINGO!

I'm not going to say where, when, and how this was achieved (at least not in public), but we finally have it.

Can you post a shot of the Bingo card? I can't see it, even when I click on the link.


And this saddens me.

my point is that if UFP members can withdraw from the Federation over one single political disagreement, then then UFP would never stand for hundreds of years. It just wouldn't.

But obviously they can (hence the quote in PIC) and it has (given the fictional history of Trek). Improbable? Perhaps, yes. Impossible? Clearly not (at least, not in this fictional universe we all like to watch) because it is apparently so.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Maybe something more happened between Nemesis and Picard beyond the supernova.

The Romulans were instrumental to the victory over the Dominion, to the point where the Federation was desperate to bring them into the war.

Then at the end of Nemesis Riker was going back to Romulus on diplomatic grounds as they "wanted to talk".

Now suddenly 20 years later you had systems threatening to leave the Federation if they saved the Romulans from destruction?

There's a few inconsistencies here.

During WWII the Soviet Union was an ally of the US. After the war they became adversaries.

 

[Noname Given]

Exactly. My biggest problem with this "absolutely no intervention of any kind ever" interpretation of the Prime Directive is that it makes no sense at all if you have already established diplomatic relations with them. Seriously, by that logic, the Prime Directive could be extended to mean that the mere act of visiting Cardassia as a tourist or buying something from a Romulan merchant could constitute contamination of their cultural development. If you're already full members of the galactic stage, an alien empire is basically just another country in the geopolitical sense. Why couldn't you lend aid to a foreign country?

^^^
Except that's HOW the PD was interpreted during the ENTIRE run of TNG (No the PD wasn't like that in TOS. In TOS the PD only protected primitive civilizations who had to spaceflight capability and no knowledge that life existed on other worlds) - but during TNG's heyday, the PD was used to justify:

- Not letting Worf have PROOF the Duras family were traitors to the Klingon empire because Picard saw it as using Federation resources to effect political change in the Klingon Empire (Yes, he ultimately relented, but not before giving a long winded self serving lecture to Lt. Worf.)

- The Federation standing by and watching as Cardassia invaded Bajor and killed MILLIONS of Bajorans (and from various comments in various episodes on both TNG and DS9 -- the Bajorans were a space faring civilization before Earth was.)

So yeah (and I've said this in a previous post with more examples) Picard suddenly claiming "The Federation doesn't get to decide what Civilizations live and what Civilizations die..." <--- Either Picard has Alzheimer's disease or he's conveniently forgetting that EXACTLY what the PD of his Star Fleet era states and how its been interpreted during his ENTIRE career in the 24th century.

 

[Yminale]

my point is that if UFP members can withdraw from the Federation over one single political disagreement, then then UFP would never stand for hundreds of years. It just wouldn't.

You can withdraw over a single disagreement but you have to remember that Federation is very careful on who they offer membership to, so it probably rarely happens. As long as the core members exist (Terrans, Vulcans, Tellerites and Andorians) The Federation would still exist even if everybody left. Just like the EU would exist as long as France and Germany were the only members.

 

[Longinus]

my point is that if UFP members can withdraw from the Federation over one single political disagreement, then then UFP would never stand for hundreds of years. It just wouldn't.

Nah. It merely means that the membership is beneficial enough that withdrawals are rare.

 

[Racefuel]

During WWII the Soviet Union was an ally of the US. After the war they became adversaries.

And then they went back to starting to talk and tensions were easing at the end of Nemesis, as I said.

 

[Lord Garth]

Can you post a shot of the Bingo card? I can't see it, even when I click on the link.

 

[Yistaan]

And then they went back to starting to talk and tensions were easing at the end of Nemesis, as I said.

Maybe from Picard's point of view, but I doubt the Fed saw it that way. Praetor Shinzon just built a thalaron weapon to try to destroy the Federation. That he was ultimately stopped doesn't change that he came into power in the first place.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And then they went back to starting to talk and tensions were easing at the end of Nemesis, as I said.

The Cold War between the US and USSR had moments of thaw as well. Point is things can change over the course of two decades.