IDK - he must have had SOMETHING on Admiral Nagura to get the 1701 back so easily (a meeting that lasted less than 3 minutes).
Poll What do you think of the Starfleet uniforms in Star Trek: Picard?
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IDK - he must have had SOMETHING on Admiral Nagura to get the 1701 back so easily (a meeting that lasted less than 3 minutes).
Probably: "You are so totally fuck, no other ships around and there's a noob in the Enterprise captain's chair!"
In the novel he had a relationship with her.
Admiral Nogura was commander of Starfleet. Vice-Admiral Lori Ciana was the one Kirk had a relationship with.
Hate it when I mix up my admiralsAdmiral Nogura was commander of Starfleet. Vice-Admiral Lori Ciana was the one Kirk had a relationship with.
Imagine how Kirk felt after waiting in Nogura's office wearing nothing but a smile.Hate it when I mix up my admirals
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toupee.
Perhaps Commodores commanding a ship is temporary while they wait for a suitable desk assignment?
No way to know. All we do know, is that at least two commanded starships in the 23rd century.
Spock calls Wesley a dedicated commander...
The Ultimate Computer said:
During "The Doomsday Machine", Decker laments that he never lost a command before, and Kirk calls him a starship commander...
The Doomsday Machine said:
Probably easier to nail it down as exceptions exist in when it comes to flag officers and starship command.
It's inconsistently used so no real way to nail it down.
The stories needed a person higher in rank than Kirk, so Commodore is was. Needs of the plot is almost as common as speed of the plot.
There was Captain, Fleet Captain and then Commodore before you were promoted to one of the Admiral ranks.
The STO images may have given us a clue to the subtle Flag Officer distinctions on the (apparently) otherwise standard gold duty uniform:
The STO version of the one-pip Admiral / Commodore bar is worn with a slightly different combadge — the standard version has a silver arrowhead outline with gold backing plates but the STO admiral version has a reversed metal colors in that it has a GOLD arrowhead outline and silver (maybe even dull-finish silver) backing plates.
This mimics the (fictional) alternative future uniforms from the TNG episode Future Imperfect where Admiral Picard’s badge had a gold delta on silver bars and all the others had silver delta on gold (or black) bars.
It’s not immediately obvious from the currently available images of either the one-pip Vulcan or Admiral Clancy whether this is also true for the costumes in the show. The lighting in each shot is such that it’s hard to make out but I have a feeling that this might well turn out to be the case.
EDIT:
I’ll correct myself — just spotted that STO (at least in the pics I have seen) is using the gold-on-dull-silver combadge for ALL ranks so this may not be that helpful after all!
The STO version of the one-pip Admiral / Commodore bar is worn with a slightly different combadge — the standard version has a silver arrowhead outline with gold backing plates but the STO admiral version has a reversed metal colors in that it has a GOLD arrowhead outline and silver (maybe even dull-finish silver) backing plates.
This mimics the (fictional) alternative future uniforms from the TNG episode Future Imperfect where Admiral Picard’s badge had a gold delta on silver bars and all the others had silver delta on gold (or black) bars.
It’s not immediately obvious from the currently available images of either the one-pip Vulcan or Admiral Clancy whether this is also true for the costumes in the show. The lighting in each shot is such that it’s hard to make out but I have a feeling that this might well turn out to be the case.
EDIT:
I’ll correct myself — just spotted that STO (at least in the pics I have seen) is using the gold-on-dull-silver combadge for ALL ranks so this may not be that helpful after all!
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Slightly off topic but relevant to some of the discussion above with respect to Commodore...
Moving away from the US Navy, the British Royal Navy historically had two grades of Commodore:
The grade was initially a temporary appointment rather than a substantive rank (substantive promotion was from Post Captain to Rear Admiral) but it nevertheless carried legal seniority and was specifically included in RN regulations as a separate grade with its own uniform distinctions.
A Commodore of the Second Class wore a Captain’s uniform and commanded their own ship but a Commodore of the First Class wore the uniform of a Rear Admiral and had a Captain to command their ship, effectively taking on the Flag Officer role.
When the current style of officer rank distinction lace (or gold stripes!) was introduced around 1850, captains originally had three stripes and commodores wore four stripes. By the 1860s, captains had acquired their fourth stripe and commodores began wearing the broad band of gold lace previously associated with admirals but epaulette insignia for for commodores was the same as that worn by all captains of over three years seniority.
By the early 20th Century, the epaulette insignia for Commodores had been differentiated from those of Captains and Commodores 2nd Class continued to wear a single ring of broad gold cuff lace but Commodores of the First Class continued to wear Rear Admiral’s sleeve lace, all with the Commodore epaulettes. Later in the 20th Century, the two classes were reduced to a single grade wearing just the broad gold cuff lace. The rank was established as a substantive grade, equivalent to an army Brigadier (NATO OF-6 / US O-7 / one-star).
Thinking of Kirk and his temporary grade reduction in TMP, the first operational captain of the new UK aircraft carrier was an established Commodore when he took command for her sea trials and fixed-wing flying trials but, by RN tradition, wore the four gold cuff rings of a Captain for the duration of that command. On relinquishing the carrier, he was promoted from his one-star to a substantive two-star appointment as Rear Admiral.
It has been noted in various accounts that Roddenberry thought of Kirk as “Horatio Hornblower in space” as much as he considered Trek to be “Wagon Train to the stars” and that Starfleet borrowed from Royal Navy tradition. With this in mind, maybe the USN is not necessarily always the starting reference point for Starfleet...?
Moving away from the US Navy, the British Royal Navy historically had two grades of Commodore:
The grade was initially a temporary appointment rather than a substantive rank (substantive promotion was from Post Captain to Rear Admiral) but it nevertheless carried legal seniority and was specifically included in RN regulations as a separate grade with its own uniform distinctions.
A Commodore of the Second Class wore a Captain’s uniform and commanded their own ship but a Commodore of the First Class wore the uniform of a Rear Admiral and had a Captain to command their ship, effectively taking on the Flag Officer role.
When the current style of officer rank distinction lace (or gold stripes!) was introduced around 1850, captains originally had three stripes and commodores wore four stripes. By the 1860s, captains had acquired their fourth stripe and commodores began wearing the broad band of gold lace previously associated with admirals but epaulette insignia for for commodores was the same as that worn by all captains of over three years seniority.
By the early 20th Century, the epaulette insignia for Commodores had been differentiated from those of Captains and Commodores 2nd Class continued to wear a single ring of broad gold cuff lace but Commodores of the First Class continued to wear Rear Admiral’s sleeve lace, all with the Commodore epaulettes. Later in the 20th Century, the two classes were reduced to a single grade wearing just the broad gold cuff lace. The rank was established as a substantive grade, equivalent to an army Brigadier (NATO OF-6 / US O-7 / one-star).
Thinking of Kirk and his temporary grade reduction in TMP, the first operational captain of the new UK aircraft carrier was an established Commodore when he took command for her sea trials and fixed-wing flying trials but, by RN tradition, wore the four gold cuff rings of a Captain for the duration of that command. On relinquishing the carrier, he was promoted from his one-star to a substantive two-star appointment as Rear Admiral.
It has been noted in various accounts that Roddenberry thought of Kirk as “Horatio Hornblower in space” as much as he considered Trek to be “Wagon Train to the stars” and that Starfleet borrowed from Royal Navy tradition. With this in mind, maybe the USN is not necessarily always the starting reference point for Starfleet...?
This is super interesting! I had never heard of such a tradition, but it is fun to learn that there's a real world precedent for that procedure in TMP. I always considered it utterly bizarre, but it is quite possible that this was where Roddenberry got the idea from.
Yes, interesting, isn't it?
The other point worth noting, was that the original concept for Starfleet rank in Trek was that the grades had more to do with identifying the role or appointment in which the individual was serving at the time, rather than progressive steps of substantive ranks in the way we currently understand contemporary military rank structures -- hence Kirk moved from the role of Chief of Starfleet Operations to the role of Starship Captain for the duration of that mission and so his role insignia changed accordingly.
The TMP novel strongly suggests this and it's very much tied in with the idea of Starfleet not being a military service -- but much of this concept has been lost since. I suspect that this is mostly to do with successive producers, writers and the audience not having an easy frame of reference for this less rigid role-based concept and therefore the tendancy is always to default back to what everyone is familiar with, which usually ends up being "oh, it's just the Navy in space" -- and this then quite frequently morphs even further to become "but the USN does it such-and-such a way, why aren't Starfleet doing it like that?" Well, because it's Starfleet and it's set hundreds of years in the future in a Federation that involves multiple other interstellar civilisations so they can do it any way they want...!
I mentioned this near the start of the General Star Trek: Picard Discussion Thread so please forgive me quoting myself:
From what has been described so far on-screen, it seems that Picard apparently went from the commanding the Enterprise to four-pip admiral commanding the Romulan rescue efforts (we know it's four pips 'cos we've seen his uniform, but equally it's a comment by a reporter, so it may not cover the full and accurate facts...!). Nevertheless, this is probably still the easiest way to explain, in-universe, how the senior Starfleet appointments work and avoids the need for a lot of convoluted fan-w*nk explanations to retroactively justify what are, really, just out-of-universe creative decisions made by the production team. At least in Picard's case it kinda makes sense: he has all the leadership experience, he's very much a hands-on operational commander and he has the links to Romulus so, overall, he was probably the most qualified person to take on that role.
The other point worth noting, was that the original concept for Starfleet rank in Trek was that the grades had more to do with identifying the role or appointment in which the individual was serving at the time, rather than progressive steps of substantive ranks in the way we currently understand contemporary military rank structures -- hence Kirk moved from the role of Chief of Starfleet Operations to the role of Starship Captain for the duration of that mission and so his role insignia changed accordingly.
The TMP novel strongly suggests this and it's very much tied in with the idea of Starfleet not being a military service -- but much of this concept has been lost since. I suspect that this is mostly to do with successive producers, writers and the audience not having an easy frame of reference for this less rigid role-based concept and therefore the tendancy is always to default back to what everyone is familiar with, which usually ends up being "oh, it's just the Navy in space" -- and this then quite frequently morphs even further to become "but the USN does it such-and-such a way, why aren't Starfleet doing it like that?" Well, because it's Starfleet and it's set hundreds of years in the future in a Federation that involves multiple other interstellar civilisations so they can do it any way they want...!
I mentioned this near the start of the General Star Trek: Picard Discussion Thread so please forgive me quoting myself:
From what has been described so far on-screen, it seems that Picard apparently went from the commanding the Enterprise to four-pip admiral commanding the Romulan rescue efforts (we know it's four pips 'cos we've seen his uniform, but equally it's a comment by a reporter, so it may not cover the full and accurate facts...!). Nevertheless, this is probably still the easiest way to explain, in-universe, how the senior Starfleet appointments work and avoids the need for a lot of convoluted fan-w*nk explanations to retroactively justify what are, really, just out-of-universe creative decisions made by the production team. At least in Picard's case it kinda makes sense: he has all the leadership experience, he's very much a hands-on operational commander and he has the links to Romulus so, overall, he was probably the most qualified person to take on that role.
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The original conception was more of an 18th century Royal Navy structure, with a ship's captain and subordinate lieutenants - like Pike and Number One in The Cage.
When the series proper started, we went to that more familiar 20th century naval rank structure which stuck.
But then there was the Roddenberry idea that everyone was an officer with crewmen and ensigns being the same.
When the series proper started, we went to that more familiar 20th century naval rank structure which stuck.
But then there was the Roddenberry idea that everyone was an officer with crewmen and ensigns being the same.
Yep, agree with all of that!
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