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Spoilers Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Grading & Discussion

Grade the movie...


  • Total voters
    219
Considering that each of the two preceding Trilogies showed the face of Anakin Skywalker at least twice then it would have been nice for the theatrical cut of TROS to show Anakin's Force Ghost communicating with Rey and/or Kylo Ren. Sure the "we didn't need to see him" people would complain and the Prequel haters would be on their soapboxes about how the Prequels and Hayden Christensen sucked but this is a Saga about a family and the patriarch, so to speak, of said family was Anakin Skywalker.

Hearing his voice a couple of times was nice. Seeing him at least once would have been a lot nicer. He was, after all, the Chosen One who brought balance to the Force.
 
<Sigh> No. That's not what I said.

Criticism is fine. I have been fairly critical of aspects of Star Wars. There are aspects of The Mandalorian I don't like. I have been fairly middle of the road with the new film. I've certainly dropped criticisms in the prequels way. But there comes a point in time where it goes too far. With The Last Jedi, where fans were so unhappy that they wanted to refilm the whole thing. You could simply choose not to watch it. OR, make your own cut using the existing film. I'm not a fan of that idea, but its your right, I guess.

Ah, but not watching it/making their own fan cut was not how you approached the criticism of this film (or ST as a whole) throughout most of this thread. Accusing anyone of feeling "entitled" because they--as paying consumers--feel they have a right to analyze, and yes desire studios to "get it right", even if that means a remake is an extreme, kneejerk position which defends NewLFL/Disney from ever owning up to their ST failures.

This is also related to your lengthy attempts to belittle/debunk all of the various leaks about BTS/script problems, as if the people behind the source (and its clear you do not tolerate them at all) somehow called it all into question--which would be a pointless exercise, since some of the same leakers confirmed nearly all plot details of several MCU movies, including Avengers: Infinity War, Avengers: Endgame, Captain Marvel, Spider-Man Homecoming and other films of that franchise. Meaning they--and their sources--cannot be dismissed out of hand.
Attempting to debunk/belittle some of your hated YouTube media channels all because they dare to analyze the ST and see obvious problems that others--unaffiliated with them--have also pointed out since TROS' release is obsessive, or possessive of a property you have no connection to, which makes you just as irrational in your position as the people you criticize.

Be critical but do it in a constructive way. That is literally all I'm saying.

Is it constructive to call fans entitled (among other snarky lines) who hold a different view of what works/fails or merely suggest should be changed? Who determines what is constructive in analyzing the ST?

Some would say you are going too far.
 
You just keep repeating this, but you have no real evidence other than what you think they were doing[. Just saying they had to know about it without find some kind of evidence that they did is not enough.

The evidence is what I, DarKush and others far beyond this board have seen and discussed based on our understanding of racial stereotypes in film, how they are developed, which tropes are long-lived and applied. That is evidence, just as much as it was evidence leading critics/activists/some audiences to accurately criticize certain TV series and "Blaxploitation" movies of the 1970s for using racial stereotypes of a kind that had its roots in the dawn of film. It was no great feat to zero in on racially offensive stereotypes then, and its not now. Its not your fault for not seeing it, but you should know that to another audience, they have had to deal with it and know the easy to see hallmarks of racial stereotypes for generations.

This whole #Release the JJ/AbramsCut this is just ridiculous, we don't even know that there is a JJ cut and even if there was. And if there was, which I doubt very much, if Disney wanted us to see it, they would have released it instead of the one we got.

I'm calling it right now:give it 5 to 10 years. Whatever format exists at that time will host the
"Unseen Star Wars - The Skywalker Saga: 9 Movies You Only Thought You Knew"
deluxe version for $800.00 with disc that you hold in your hand and activates a 12-inch CG Luke hinting at all of the Easter Egg locations.
 
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Skimming some of the discussion about Finn's character brought me back. Just because Lucasfilm, Kennedy, Abrams, or Terrio don't "see" negative racial stereotyping or negative implications to the Finn character, and there's no evidence we've seen that they don't, just like some would say there no evidence that they do, doesn't mean the negative racial stereotyping did not exist, or that certain moviegoers saw or it felt that it had been done.

Even though I also have no evidence, I doubt that Lucas intentionally thought Jar Jar Binks, Watto, and the Nemoidians were racially/culturally insensitive when he created them, but that's how they were perceived (and IMO were). Lucas, drawing from the history of Hollywood and old serials, seemingly drew from a very questionable racial/cultural well without thinking of the how other people might see it, because he enjoyed those serials, and since they weren't offensive to him, then he IMO assumed they wouldn't be offensive to others.

I could see Disney Lucasfilm making similar decisions. And that goes to who is in the room making creative decisions. For all of the touting of Disney Star Wars' progressive views, all the film directors thus far have been white males (and though I haven't looked up the screen writers, I'm just going to go out on a limb here and assume the same). I'm not making a blanket assertion that white males in principle, or in general, can't make culturally aware and nuanced films or create non-white characters, to be clear, but when it comes to Finn and Disney Star Wars the proof is in the pudding.

My own personal take is that Disney, especially after hearing more of the J.J. Cut rumors, was skittish about putting a black character in such a prominent role already and made him a more stereotypical character to make him palatable to non-black audiences who might have been put off by the inclusion of the character, but also was hoping that his prominence and the desire for representation and inclusion, their marketing machine, ignorance (willful or otherwise) as well as Boyega's charisma, would be enough to mollify detractors.

Though it's also simply not an issue of having one or even a handful of people of color in the writing rooms and boardrooms, it also has to be a willingness to hear and consider what they have to say if their views are divergent and if they are willing or able to bring in a different racial/cultural perspective. I do think the Disney Star Wars novels, even more than the comics, have diversified their writing stable. I've also seen some more diversity behind the camera for The Mandalorian. Perhaps the next round of films will follow suit.

People being blind or callous even to racial discrimination or disparities is not unusual. If it's not your experience, if it doesn't affect your life, and then also if you're living inside the insulated bubble of Hollywood, I can see how easily oblivious a person could be. Plus the history of racism in this country is unsettling and many people still struggle with reckoning with the past, much less the future. Look at what's going on about with the debate about Confederate monuments today.

As for the charge that a few, basically a minority, only take issue with Finn (which is debatable since Finn does not seem to be a broadly embraced character among black Americans; compare him to the Black Panther characters for example), does that make the concerns any less valid. What I am getting here is an attempt to dismiss these concerns, that 'you people' (my words here) are too sensitive and you need to 'stop seeing racism everywhere' kind of thinking. Don't interrupt my fun. It's 'your problem' not mine. And 'get over it'. It also reminds me of how the 'vocal minority' charge was used by Disney and the Hollywood media, among others, to dismiss The Last Jedi detractors.

Back to the Black Panther characters. When you look at that film and how many different kind of complex/complicated characters and nuanced portrayals you had in it, there's really no excuse. Even Nick Fury, though a supporting character, has been depicted with more complexity, and he's nowhere near as prominently featured, with the exception of Captain Marvel, where Fury was almost a co-star in that film (to be honest here, I wasn't the biggest fan of how Fury was depicted in Captain Marvel, though was nowhere near as grating as how I've often felt when it comes to Finn). Laurence Fishburne's Bill Foster, got even less screen time, but his characterization I had no real problem with. The MCU is not perfect, but it is definitely doing it better than Star Wars when it comes to inclusion and representation.

I may be wrong here but I can't see Ryan Coogler, F. Gary Gray, Jordan Peele (as a director so far) among others putting the Finn character onscreen as we got him particularly in The Force Awakens. And if Disney had been insistent about Finn I could see them adding other black characters to balance him out, like giving Korr Sella more to do. She was in a blink and miss it role, and thankfully the actress has gotten much more to do on Legends of Tomorrow.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Korr_Sella
 
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I doubt that Lucas intentionally thought Jar Jar Binks, Watto, and the Nemoidians were racially/culturally insensitive when he created them

Dunno about Watto or the Neimoidian characters, but AFAIK Ahmed Best was basically given free rein to voice Jar-Jar however he wanted. It wasn't dictated from on high by Lucas or anyone else.

If I'm wrong, of course feel free to correct me. :lol:
 
Dunno about Watto or the Neimoidian characters, but IIRC Ahmed Best was basically given free rein to voice Jar-Jar however he wanted. It wasn't dictated from on high by Lucas or anyone else.

If I'm wrong, of course feel free to correct me. :lol:

Where did you see/read about Best having free rein to voice Jar Jar? If you know of a video or interview that goes into the creation and depiction of Binks I would like to see what the thinking was behind the character.

The closest I found to what you suggest here comes from this article: https://www.wired.com/2017/07/ahmed-best-jar-jar-binks-new-podcast/

“I did my job,” he says. “I was believable enough for you to believe that this character existed. George said do a thing, I did a thing, you know what I mean? The fact that you hate Jar Jar—I still did the job.”

But my reading of this is Best is talking about his physical performance and not the accent he used. I've put in some articles that go over why some took offense with Binks, Watto, and the Nemoidians. I will say this though, that if this did come mostly from Best, Lucas is still the director, and still has to safeguard his film. If Best was the vision behind Binks, that doesn't explain why Watto or the Nemoidians were also considered racially offensive by some. Were those actors also given free rein by Lucas?

Further there is also an unfortunate history of some black performers being complicit in promoting racial stereotypes, like minstrelsy. I'm not accusing Best of anything here, just pointing out a regrettable history, that would not excuse Lucas from also having a role in Jar Jar's depiction. Far as I know, Jar Jar is the sole responsibility for Lucas, and would still be, because he was the creator, writer, and director, it was his vision.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/1999/05/the-merchant-of-menace.html
https://www.indiewire.com/2019/04/g...nks-favorite-star-wars-character-1202059335/#!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/star-wars-accused-of-race-stereotypes-1097783.html
https://davechen.net/2012/02/racism-and-ethnic-stereotypes-in-star-wars-the-phantom-menace/
 
To be honest... the only cut I want to see is one where we actually get a climatic space battle between those two gigantic fleets. I don't watch these movies for cutting edge storytelling and character depth. But, at least give me a decent space battle when you tease us with all that spaceship eye candy! It's the, ahem... "last" Star Wars movie after all.
 
To be honest... the only cut I want to see is one where we actually get a climatic space battle between those two gigantic fleets. I don't watch these movies for cutting edge storytelling and character depth. But, at least give me a decent space battle when you tease us with all that eye candy! It's the, ahem... "last" Star Wars movie after all.
agreed. Rogue One felt the closest
 
Yup, just needed more CGI.. :rolleyes:

Hey come on... it's Star Wars. It's not like I'm bitching about an underwhelming space battle in, say... Breaking Bad or Pride and Prejudice (actually, I wouldn't mind seeing how they'd fit one into the latter). I've always loved a great space battle. It's not as if it were an unrealistic expectation.

:shrug:
 
Skimming some of the discussion about Finn's character brought me back. Just because Lucasfilm, Kennedy, Abrams, or Terrio don't "see" negative racial stereotyping or negative implications to the Finn character, and there's no evidence we've seen that they don't, just like some would say there no evidence that they do, doesn't mean the negative racial stereotyping did not exist, or that certain moviegoers saw or it felt that it had been done.

Even though I also have no evidence, I doubt that Lucas intentionally thought Jar Jar Binks, Watto, and the Nemoidians were racially/culturally insensitive when he created them, but that's how they were perceived (and IMO were). Lucas, drawing from the history of Hollywood and old serials, seemingly drew from a very questionable racial/cultural well without thinking of the how other people might see it, because he enjoyed those serials, and since they weren't offensive to him, then he IMO assumed they wouldn't be offensive to others.

I could see Disney Lucasfilm making similar decisions. And that goes to who is in the room making creative decisions. For all of the touting of Disney Star Wars' progressive views, all the film directors thus far have been white males (and though I haven't looked up the screen writers, I'm just going to go out on a limb here and assume the same). I'm not making a blanket assertion than white males in principle, or in general, can't make culturally aware and nuanced films or create non-white characters, to be clear, but when it comes to Finn and Disney Star Wars the proof is in the pudding.

My own personal take is that Disney, especially after hearing more of the J.J. Cut rumors, was skittish about putting a black character in such a prominent role already and made him a more stereotypical character to make him palatable to non-black audiences who might have been put off by the inclusion of the character, but also was hoping that his prominence and the desire for representation and inclusion, their marketing machine, ignorance (willful or otherwise) as well as Boyega's charisma, would be enough to mollify detractors.

Though it's simply not an issue of having one or even a handful of people of color in the writing rooms and boardrooms, it also has to be a willingness to hear and consider what they have to say if their views are divergent and if they are willing or able to bring in a different racial/cultural perspective. I do think the novels, even more than the comics, have diversified their writing stable. I've also seen some more diversity behind the camera for The Mandalorian. Perhaps the next round of films will follow suit.

People being blind or callous even to racial discrimination or disparities is not unusual. If it's not your experience, if it doesn't affect your life, and then also if you're living inside the insulated bubble of Hollywood, I can see how easily oblivious a person could be. Plus the history of racism in this country is unsettling and many people still struggle with reckoning with the past, much less the future. Look at what's going on about with the debate about Confederate monuments today.

As for the charge that a few, basically a minority, only take issue with Finn (which is debatable since Finn does not seem to be a broadly embraced character among black Americans; compare him to the Black Panther characters for example), does that make the concerns any less valid. What I am getting here is an attempt to dismiss these concerns, that 'you people' (my words here) are too sensitive and you need to 'stop seeing racism everywhere' kind of thinking. Don't interrupt my fun. It's 'your problem' not mine. And 'get over it'. It also reminds me of how the 'vocal minority' charge was used by Disney and the Hollywood media, among others, to dismiss The Last Jedi detractors.

Back to the Black Panther characters. When you look at that film and how many different kind of complex/complicated characters and nuanced portrayals you had in it, there's really no excuse. Even Nick Fury, though a supporting character, has been depicted with more complexity, and he's nowhere near as prominently featured. Laurence Fishburne's Bill Foster, got even less screen time, but his characterization I had no real problem with. The MCU is not perfect, but it is definitely doing it better than Star Wars when it comes to inclusion and representation.

I may be wrong here but I can't see Ryan Coogler, F. Gary Gray, Jordan Peele (as a director so far) among others putting the Finn character onscreen as we got him particularly in The Force Awakens. And if Disney had been insistent about Finn I could see them adding other black characters to balance him out, like giving Korr Sella more to do. She was in a blink and miss it role, and thankfully has gotten much more to do on Legends of Tomorrow.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Korr_Sella
Just to be clear again, I'm not arguing that the character of Finn wasn't racist, since as a white guy I'm not really in a position to argue that, my point was that I don't think Kennedy, Abrams, Terrio, ect. are racist. People can easily fall back into racist characterization without realizing what they are doing.
Large pillows with picture of someone you fancy on them popular in Japan with anime characters on them large enough to uum cuddle or snog.
That's honestly, rather disturbing.
 
space battles, and the great spectacle.. is actually a key (not the only) ingredient of SW. And I think Knoll brought this to Star Wars. Let's have a RotJ style battle involving a big fleet, working in conjunction with a ground battle. This works. and they didn't place it in the fog or what not.
 
It's not as if it were an unrealistic expectation.
Didn't say that it was. I just think there are more than one way to tell a SW story, and I think that the SW box is too small.

I love a good space battle but I also am totally on board with having more from SW stories. And that's what ESB did, what TPM did, and what the ST has done. Give me more variety, not less.
 
Some would say you are going too far.

While I could disagree with specific details, I will not suggest that any of your post is particularly wrong. I am not perfect. I am quite aware of my failings. Some of what you’ve brought up. And many, MANY other things. However, I do not feel like continuing this debate with you nor I do I need a lecture about my failings. I will attempt to do better.

Thank you for your post.
 
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