Is 'Woman In Cafeteria' Janice Rand, or not?

[Pauln6]

For the longest time it never even occurred to me that it was Rand and had always wondered who that lady was and why she was so prominent in that particular scene. It wasn't until, I believe, the text commentary on the SE DVD from Okuda that pointed out it was Grace-Lee Whitney.

I think the red hair was throwing me off. And when I see it now, it's just so obviously her.

She happened to have dyed her hair red at the time. As it was a last minute cameo at Nimoy's request, I suppose nobody thought it was worth spending money on a blonde wig.

Maybe we can CGI in a Lt. Jg insignia, although it's worth noting that she's listed in the cast list of STIV as Commander Rand despite her NCO uniform.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Maybe the woman in the cafeteria is not actually Janice Rand, but a close relative, like a sister or cousin (explaining why they look alike).

Her reaction to the arrival of the Enterprise could be because of all the stories Janice told her about the ship.

 

[Pauln6]

Maybe the woman in the cafeteria is not actually Janice Rand, but a close relative, like a sister or cousin (explaining why they look alike).

Her reaction to the arrival of the Enterprise could be because of all the stories Janice told her about the ship.

More likely a robot infiltrator from Exo II.

Those characters had dialogue and were identified by name. In the STIII Spacedock scene, the costuming is all we have to go on.

O'Brien was originally in the uniform of a Lt for three seasons. The decision to ret-con him to a CPO wasn't taken until season 5 (or was it 6?). If Woman in Cafeteria was wearing an NCO uniform consistent with STIV, would anybody doubt that it was Rand? If we have to place our faith in the official cast list, must we also take account that, since Rand was canonically titled Commander Rand in the cast list of STIV, surely the more sensible answer is that she was off duty when the emergency hit and put on the nearest uniform to hand? Then later, she was demoted down to to Lt.jg due to that bad business on Eroticon VI, prior to STVI and Tuvok's memory of her as a Lt-Commander was simply faulty. Clearly, her old friend Sulu, threw a bone to a disgraced officer by giving her a job on Excelsior.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

If Woman in Cafeteria was wearing an NCO uniform consistent with STIV, would anybody doubt that it was Rand? If we have to place our faith in the official cast list, must we also take account that, since Rand was canonically titled Commander Rand in the cast list of STIV, surely the more sensible answer is that she was off duty when the emergency hit and put on the nearest uniform to hand? Then later, she was demoted down to to Lt.jg due to that bad business on Eroticon VI, prior to STVI and Tuvok's memory of her as a Lt-Commander was simply faulty. Clearly, her old friend Sulu, threw a bone to a disgraced officer by giving her a job on Excelsior.

Like I said.

 

[Pauln6]

Like I said.

But you said something similar but reached the opposite conclusion ;-p.

You are right that her line in Voyager about qualifying as an ensign doesn't fit her character history either but canonical Rand has a cheeky sense of humour and she DID bring Kirk his coffee so I think everything she says to Tuvok is a joke.

 

[Therin of Andor]

... her line in Voyager about qualifying as an ensign doesn't fit her character history either...

Neither yeomen nor ensigns had sleeve stripes in TOS, so how do we know that Rand didn't progress from Yeoman to Ensign after TOS?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

But you said something similar but reached the opposite conclusion ;-p.

I meant that any explanation for Rand going from Yeoman to Ensign to Non-Com (IIRC) Transporter Chief to Commander to Chief Petty Officer to Lt. JG / Lt. Commander can't help but be unbelievably convoluted. You proved that point.

 

[Pauln6]

Neither yeomen nor ensigns had sleeve stripes in TOS, so how do we know that Rand didn't progress from Yeoman to Ensign after TOS?

She has a CPO rank in TMP. But it is true to say that if you ignore the rank pins and costumes ENTIRELY, she has a very straightforward career progression even if she spent three years on the Enterprise to qualify for field promotion rather than the 6 months we see on screen.

 

[Amasov]

I don't know that her rank is what's important in identifying whether that is supposed to be Rand or not. I think it's just more on the fact that it is Grace Lee Whitney as Rand, despite it not being stated on-screen or in the credits. Nimoy just brought back a familiar face as an easter egg and I'm more inclined to believe not much thought was put into what her character's career path became. They just identified a spot in a movie where we'd see someone from the original series.

It was probably the same case in Star Trek IV as well. In that quick fleeting moment, we see her again; just as we did Chapel, who, now seems to be a Commander. I think it was just more about putting in familiar faces regardless of whether their fictional "ranks" were correct or not.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

O'Brien was originally in the uniform of a Lt for three seasons. The decision to ret-con him to a CPO wasn't taken until season 5 (or was it 6?).

Season 4, Episode 2 "Family", which per Ronald D. Moore was the first time the writing team actually put any thought into him as a character (though he'd had a surname for nearly two years at this point). Though it wasn't until 6.02 "Realm of Fear" that he was given the "half-pip" (first worn by Miss Gladstone, a member of the ship's teaching staff in 2.01)

 

[Pauln6]

Season 4, Episode 2 "Family", which per Ronald D. Moore was the first time the writing team actually put any thought into him as a character (though he'd had a surname for nearly two years at this point). Though it wasn't until 6.02 "Realm of Fear" that he was given the "half-pip" (first worn by Miss Gladstone, a member of the ship's teaching staff in 2.01)

I never really understood why Trek ships were so ludicrously top heavy with officers.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Me neither.

I mean I'm relatively okay with the idea that anyone can become an officer, as we have a couple of examples of that happening in canon (notably Janice Rand was certainly enlisted in TOS itself, if not conclusively after). But like in most police and law enforcement organizations, you should at least have the option of taking a relatively focused training program to get out in the field sooner [specifically described in The Drumhead (TNG) and alluded to in Starship Down (DS9)] rather than being 'stuck in the classroom' for years just to become a security guard, janitor, secretary, cook/waiter or even medic (on the other hand, CONN is the one role that might be officer rather than enlisted if/when it combines helm/navigation/CONN and even WEPS as it appears to during various eras).

Treklit's Archer class is definately the worst example of this in Trek with a crew of only about a dozen lead by a full Captain and a full Commander, supported by two LCDRs, seven junior officers, two senior NCOs and three junior NCOs/enlisted, whereas a RW navy ship of a similar size would be commanded by a LCDR, a couple each of JOs and Chiefs, with the rest being JNCOs/crew (10-15% officer), and a similar air force crew size might be -- based on the AC-130 -- might be 5 officers [maximum of a AF major or naval LCDR] and 8-9 NCOs & crew (~36% officer).

 

[Therin of Andor]

She has a CPO rank in TMP. But it is true to say that if you ignore the rank pins and costumes ENTIRELY, she has a very straightforward career progression even if she spent three years on the Enterprise to qualify for field promotion rather than the 6 months we see on screen.

But onscreen, the trapezoid rank pips she wore in TMP were not attributed a "CPO" designation in TMP-related paperwork of the day. Her rank is discussed in a memo in "The Making of TMP". The memo suggests a rank (of Ensign, IIRC) and it is corrected with the fact that she is a Transporter Chief, signed off with a "Sorry about that, Chief".

I don't know that her rank is what's important in identifying whether that is supposed to be Rand or not. I think it's just more on the fact that it is Grace Lee Whitney as Rand, despite it not being stated on-screen or in the credits. Nimoy just brought back a familiar face as an easter egg and I'm more inclined to believe not much thought was put into what her character's career path became. They just identified a spot in a movie where we'd see someone from the original series.

I interviewed Grace in January 1984, and had accidentally uncovered her top secret cameo that morning, when someone in the production was discussing my plans for the day and said, "Oh, Grace is doing very well. I saw her recently, at the [ST III] wrap party."

"Why was Grace at the wrap party...?"

"Oooops".

And then I was sworn to secrecy. I congratulated Grace in person and she said (after I put away my notes and pen), "It was very exciting. They filmed it at ILM after principal photography had ended. They gave me Kirk's rank pins on my uniform", so I was actually expecting to see Admiral Rand on the big screen on opening night.

 

[Pauln6]

But onscreen, the trapezoid rank pips she wore in TMP were not attributed a "CPO" designation in TMP-related paperwork of the day. Her rank is discussed in a memo in "The Making of TMP". The memo suggests a rank (of Ensign, IIRC) and it is corrected with the fact that she is a Transporter Chief, signed off with a "Sorry about that, Chief".



I interviewed Grace in January 1984, and had accidentally uncovered her top secret cameo that morning, when someone in the production was discussing my plans for the day and said, "Oh, Grace is doing very well. I saw her recently, at the [ST III] wrap party."

"Why was Grace at the wrap party...?"

"Oooops".

And then I was sworn to secrecy. I congratulated Grace in person and she said (after I put away my notes and pen), "It was very exciting. They filmed it at ILM after principal photography had ended. They gave me Kirk's rank pins on my uniform", so I was actually expecting to see Admiral Rand on the big screen on opening night.

I recall she was initially an ensign in the early drafts of TMP as well. Poor Rand; to go from the female lead to an afterthought!

 

[Dukhat]

Maybe the woman in the cafeteria is not actually Janice Rand, but a close relative, like a sister or cousin (explaining why they look alike).

Her reaction to the arrival of the Enterprise could be because of all the stories Janice told her about the ship.

What would be the point of that?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Something has to be done. Might as well be something like that.

 

[Dukhat]

^ Something has to be done. Might as well be something like that.

I don’t understand. The person is clearly Rand. It’s a cameo. Just because she isn’t credited as Rand doesn’t mean that she now has to be someone else.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don’t understand. The person is clearly Rand. It’s a cameo. Just because she isn’t credited as Rand doesn’t mean that she now has to be someone else.

It's the rank insignia that's a problem.

A full Commander doesn't get busted down to Lieutenant JG without a damn good reason.

 

[Dukhat]

It's the rank insignia that's a problem.

A full Commander doesn't get busted down to Lieutenant JG without a damn good reason.

I’m sure they just gave her a spare uniform from the wardrobe and didn’t give a crap what rank insignia it had, or thought that the audience would care either.

 

[Pauln6]

It's the rank insignia that's a problem.

A full Commander doesn't get busted down to Lieutenant JG without a damn good reason.

She 'forgot' to report Mr Scott when he sabotaged the Excelsior, although technically, if you go by her uniform alone, she was busted down to Master Chief in STIV so STVI to Lt.jg was a promotion. Valeris was a Lt with a Lt commander rank pin. Maybe they got their uniforms mixed up...