Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

[fireproof78]

Nope. EG is the equivalent of e.g. Caesar in ancient Rome and rules on similar principles. Regardless of whether one is an emperor or just a captain of a spaceship, one cannot show weakness in there. Such a culture prevails in there and it has nothing to do with morality. This is the same cultural difference as e.g. between the Federation and the Klingon Empire which is ruled by similar principles and commits similar crimes. Somehow it does not prevent the Federation from being with this empire in friendly relations in the XXIV century. And also on a personal level, the killer can return to his post on a Federation ship as if nothing had happened. Since there are no discussions about Worf's morality here, MU Georgiou should be treated by the commentators in a similar way, because she did not commit any crime in the PU and so far she has adhered to federation customs.

Dax did a similar thing with the Blood Oath Curzon made.

 

[Cake]

But, if there is push back against DSC as Prime, against Kelvin as an Alternate universe then I can't imagine the outrage of having a Mirror Universe full series. It would make this thread seem tame by comparison.

Not that I want a Mirror Universe series, but I would have less of a problem with it than with the Section 31 series. A Mirror Universe series would at least not undermine and erode the good nature of the Federation. It wouldn't have any negative implications on the universe the other Star Trek series are set in.

Do we give them the opportunity to learn a new way? If I never knew how "act like a human" (what does that mean exactly? Who decides?) why am I punished for what I did not know?

See, the examples that you point out in our world make it challenging because we know the systems are in place to teach morals, right and wrong. Germany was the seat of many Enlightment figures, and philosophers, but also had their own struggles. Are those figures present in the Mirror Universe? Did they have the same moral philosophy to teach them these things that we now take for granted? Is right and wrong a moral absolute across universes? If so, what is the standard and who arbitrates it?

We actually know there are many good people in the Mirror Universe, they just aren't humans. For example the Halkans were so peaceful that they rather wanted to die than give their dilithium to such a brutal regime as the Terran Empire. So at least since humans have met other races they should have come across other ideas. They just ignore them.

Humans in the MU are just written like caricature evil mustache swirling villains. Realistically speaking I don't see how MU humans could prosper so much. The equivalent of the Cold War would for sure have turned hot there and other wars would have been more brutal with more destruction and a bigger loss of life, too. Also this habit to kill your superior to advance is not exactly good for the advancement of a race as knowledge and experience is getting lost all the time.

 

[fireproof78]

Humans in the MU are just written like caricature evil mustache swirling villains. Realistically speaking I don't see how MU humans could prosper so much. The equivalent of the Cold War would for sure have turned hot there and other wars would have been more brutal with more destruction and a bigger loss of life, too. Also this habit to kill your superior to advance is not exactly good for the advancement of a race as knowledge and experience is getting lost all the time.

I agree that it isn't realistic. And, as much as I enjoy realism in fiction, Trek has not been that way for a bit, not fully anyway. The Mirror Universe is interesting to me because it showcases how different characters might behave given different circumstances, the whole "nature vs. nurture" debate."

So, yeah, it's a totally caricature character put in to a different world. It's going to be hard to take seriously. But, I'm going to give it my best.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

We actually know there are many good people in the Mirror Universe, they just aren't humans.

There's at least one I can name: Captain Maximilian Forrest (from "In a Mirror, Darkly") - the mirror counterpart of Admiral Forrest.

Sure, he's a badass, but he still honestly cares about his ship and his crew. And you'll notice that the last we see of him, he stays behind to allow the Enterprise crew to evacuate, knowing the Tholian attack will result in his death.

I'd call that pretty damn heroic, myself.

 

[Cake]

@Mr. Laser Beam

It had been a while since I have seen that epispode. So even in the Mirror Universe some humans could have inclinations of decency. That just shows that it is a choice for most humans there to be evil. It is not something which is in their biology. They could act differently. They just don't want to.

Though I suspect that most individual humans in the MU just swim along. Sure they are assholes, but I don't think they go around and are murdering other humans and aliens personally all the time. I think the most ambitious humans have the highest killing count and those are the ones we see the most. I think Starfleet and the higest political positions in the Terran Empire attract the biggest assholes. Your average person just living on Earth trying to earn some income and make a living, raise their kids, etc. might have really skewed values, but is likely doing fewer evil deeds.

 

[fireproof78]

Humans are capable of both great good and great evil, and everything in between.

 

[NCC-73515]

This is the same cultural difference as e.g. between the Federation and the Klingon Empire which is ruled by similar principles and commits similar crimes. Somehow it does not prevent the Federation from being with this empire in friendly relations in the XXIV century.

Did the Klingons commit planetwide genocide on sentient species? We only know they destroyed the Tribble homeworld. It seems to me the Terrans were much more savage and cruel than the 24th century Klingons, and we are talking about the ruler of this empire. Would a Klingon leader from a more savage era, say Molor, be a good Section 31 lead character in your mind?

And also on a personal level, the killer can return to his post on a Federation ship as if nothing had happened. Since there are no discussions about Worf's morality here, MU Georgiou should be treated by the commentators in a similar way, because she did not commit any crime in the PU and so far she has adhered to federation customs.

Picard handled it by moral lecture so maybe Georgiou just could read Picard's sermons about Federation morals and all will be handled.

Ah. Since it is only a matter of applying local laws and customs, Burnham gave them to the Federation in her reports, so we know that the emperor Georgiou acted in accordance with the laws and customs prevailing there, so she is as pure as Worf. Scriptwriters don't have to do anything and MU Georgiou can become a fully-fledged positive heroine of her series.

Did Worf kill one Klingon in a fair fight who had killed his mate, or did Worf torture and kill entire civilizations unfairly for no good reason at all? I'm sure you know.

Do you remember that Archer is a hero of the Federation?

Which planets did Archer destroy, how many people did he torture, and which sentient slaves did he eat?

Space Caesar.

More like space Vlad.

Yes, I agree that Picard should not remain in the Starfleet after what he did as a Borg.

I'm sure you're aware that it was not Picard, but Locutus, and that they are different personalities.

 

[PiotrB]

Did the Klingons commit planetwide genocide on sentient species? We only know they destroyed the Tribble homeworld. It seems to me the Terrans were much more savage and cruel than the 24th century Klingons, and we are talking about the ruler of this empire.

What did they want to do with Earth in the DSC, what did they want to do with the planets on which the augments virus appeared? How many colonies did they destroy or try to destroy by bombing them from orbit? They didn't start a war with Cardassia and ethnic cleansing on the planets they conquered in DS9? In the DSC series, they did not carry out terrorist attacks on civilians, killing tens of thousands of them at Federation space stations in an unjustified war? What about the attack on the mining colony thwarted by the Discovery? How did they create their empire?

Did Worf kill one Klingon in a fair fight who had killed his mate, or did Worf torture and kill entire civilizations unfairly for no good reason at all? I'm sure you know.

It doesn't matter. Under the law of the Federation for which he served, he was an almost serial killer. Who knows what he would have been capable of if he had been at the head of the empire for a longer time.

Which planets did Archer destroy, how many people did he torture, and which sentient slaves did he eat?

He annihilated a highly developed civilization and sentenced it to a slow death in torment.

I'm sure you're aware that it was not Picard, but Locutus, and that they are different personalities.

As a starfleet captain, he knew what he was going to use for when he was captured and what knowledge the Borg would gain. He should know what to do in such a situation.

 

[Tuskin38]

As a starfleet captain, he knew what he was going to use for when he was captured and what knowledge the Borg would gain. He should know what to do in such a situation.

Actually he didn’t know.

Remember, at that point in the series, the Borg were only interested in technology, they never assimilated another being before. It’s even brought up in dialogue in that two parter that Locutus was a new experience for the Enterprise crew. They had no idea the Borg could turn Picard into one of them.

It was later retconned by Voyager and First Contact that the Borg was made up of multiple assimilated species. But during TNG, the Borg were conceived as a single species of cyborgs.

 

[The Wormhole]

It was later retconned by Voyager and First Contact that they borg was always made up of multiple assimilated species. But during the run on TNG the Borg were conceived as a single species.

The retcon actually came in TBOBW Part 2 where suddenly the Borg are abruptly talking about assimilation as though it is SOP, but yeah, prior to the Locutus reveal, assimilation was unheard of, and part 1 actually treats the idea of turning Picard into a Borg as something unique to the situation.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It was explicit in "Q Who" that the Borg were born organically and had cybernetic implants applied from day one, and that they had zero interest in the Enterprise crew, only their technology.

I'm guessing someone realised making them harvest people as well as machines was more scary (and correctly so) and the change was made.

 

[NCC-73515]

What did they want to do with Earth in the DSC, what did they want to do with the planets on which the augments virus appeared? How many colonies did they destroy or try to destroy by bombing them from orbit? They didn't start a war with Cardassia and ethnic cleansing on the planets they conquered in DS9? In the DSC series, they did not carry out terrorist attacks on civilians, killing tens of thousands of them at Federation space stations in an unjustified war? What about the attack on the mining colony thwarted by the Discovery? How did they create their empire?

They never attacked Earth (source: DS9 after the Breen attack), they never attacked the infected colony (source: end of that ENT arc), they didn't eradicate the primitive unarmed Cardassians but fought the technologically equal Cardassians in a war (source: last seasons of DS9). Yes, the Disco-Klingons killed many technologically equal Federation people in a war that (from the show's perspective) Burnham started. Again: Would the supporters of the Terran Emperor in 31 be fine with Molor in 31?

It doesn't matter. Under the law of the Federation for which he served, he was an almost serial killer. Who knows what he would have been capable of if he had been at the head of the empire for a longer time.

Source, please. How many did he illegally almost serially kill?

He annihilated a highly developed civilization and sentenced it to a slow death in torment.

Source?

As a starfleet captain, he knew what he was going to use for when he was captured and what knowledge the Borg would gain. He should know what to do in such a situation.

Getting captured in a surprise kidnapping is not the victim's fault. What should he have done in that situation, please?

 

[fireproof78]

Source, please. How many did he illegally almost serially kill?

Georgiou's killings are legal under Terran Empire law. Context is for kings and all that jazz.

No, I'm not saying she's not a morally evil person, or that she should or should not be the lead of a Star Trek show. Frankly, I don't care that much. Moral relativism is king in modern day society. Welcome to the ends justifies the means.

 

[PiotrB]

They never attacked Earth (source: DS9 after the Breen attack), they never attacked the infected colony (source: end of that ENT arc), they didn't eradicate the primitive unarmed Cardassians but fought the technologically equal Cardassians in a war (source: last seasons of DS9).

Incompetence is no excuse. It is the intention that counts. Wars can also be fought in different ways and treat POWs differently. The fact is that the Klingon Empire acts very similarly to the people of MU.

Yes, the Disco-Klingons killed many technologically equal Federation people in a war that (from the show's perspective) Burnham started.

Facts are such that it was the Klingons who started the war (from the perspective of an objective viewer) and carried it out in a manner similar to people from MU (e.g. terrorist attacks on civilian objects, torture and killing of prisoners of war).

Source, please. How many did he illegally almost serially kill?

2. Serial killer as you know must kill 3. You're not gonna argue that Worf was killing under Federation law, are you? The fact is that after returning to the Federation he should end up in prison or not return at all. At least Georgiou did not commit any crime against the law during the asylum granted by the Federation.

Source?

Predicted result of Archer's actions in this particular episode.

 

[eschaton]

It was explicit in "Q Who" that the Borg were born organically and had cybernetic implants applied from day one, and that they had zero interest in the Enterprise crew, only their technology.

I'm guessing someone realised making them harvest people as well as machines was more scary (and correctly so) and the change was made.

It can even be argued that Picard's assimilation in BoBW was supposed to be a one-time thing because The Borg needed Locutus.

Note that Hugh didn't seem to have the ability to assimilate anyone when he was captured - nor do the Borg in Descent - suggesting they didn't go the "zombie route" until First Contact.

 

[The Wormhole]

Note that Hugh didn't seem to have the ability to assimilate anyone when he was captured

Bah? All Hugh did was talk about assimilating until his individuality developed.

 

[eschaton]

Bah? All Hugh did was talk about assimilating until his individuality developed.

It wasn't clear that that meant being injected through the neck with tubes at that point though. The Borg talked about assimilation in a more generalized way, which could mean lots of things.

 

[The Wormhole]

It wasn't clear that that meant being injected through the neck with tubes at that point though. The Borg talked about assimilation in a more generalized way, which could mean lots of things.

Well, when testing Hugh to see if he were truly an individual, Picard tried ordering Hugh to join him in assimilating the Enterprise immediately. Presumably this would indicate Hugh had the means to assimilate, otherwise, what was that all about?

 

[eschaton]

Well, when testing Hugh to see if he were truly an individual, Picard tried ordering Hugh to join him in assimilating the Enterprise immediately. Presumably this would indicate Hugh had the means to assimilate, otherwise, what was that all about?

Again, assimilation was not yet properly defined in universe. It could have meant enslaving/enthralling or something. There was no evidence yet that Borg had virus-like nanoprobes that could assimilate anyone more or less on the spot.

 

[NCC-73515]

Incompetence is no excuse. It is the intention that counts. Wars can also be fought in different ways and treat POWs differently. The fact is that the Klingon Empire acts very similarly to the people of MU.

Facts are such that it was the Klingons who started the war (from the perspective of an objective viewer) and carried it out in a manner similar to people from MU (e.g. terrorist attacks on civilian objects, torture and killing of prisoners of war).

Then why won't the supporters answer the question about a Klingon leader in 31?

2. Serial killer as you know must kill 3. You're not gonna argue that Worf was killing under Federation law, are you? The fact is that after returning to the Federation he should end up in prison or not return at all. At least Georgiou did not commit any crime against the law during the asylum granted by the Federation.

Which 2?

Predicted result of Archer's actions in this particular episode.

That is not a source. Do you have one?

What should Picard have done when he was captured?