To play devil’s advocate: Who decides what matters and what’s bullshit?
Michael B. Jordan as the Man Of Steel?
- Thread starter Mage
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To play devil’s advocate: Who decides what matters and what’s bullshit?
That is the hypocrisy of many white liberals who scream about how much they believe in inclusion/representation (i.e., tokenism)...until they do not, and that "not" usually involves black males getting the short end of the stick and/or mishandled (to offensive degrees), whether in their image in fiction or in hiring practices.
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Controversy creates cash. Online impressions go wild when hardcore fans are upset about something.
Indeed. No matter how much progress we make in one area there's always another in which we fall back.
It's almost as though there's some base level need to have an outsider or a sub class we can look down on.
If it isn't gay people, or black people, or muslims, or transgender people, or atheists (yup, that got you hung drawn and quartered once upon a time) it's....someone. One group we often overlook when we talk about equality are the learning disabled, how many positive portrayals of LD people do we see in Hollywood?
Could it be that lacking a voice is part of the problem?
I can get behind the idea of Michael B. Jordan as Superman, but that's all that it is right now. Just an idea that is by no means remotely locked down by anyone actually involved with it. Still, it was enough to cause some to declare it at another site I was at as "another shot in the war against white men."
Seriously? It's a frickin' fictional character from another planet!
Seriously? It's a frickin' fictional character from another planet!
I can get behind the idea of Michael B. Jordan as Superman, but that's all that it is right now. Just an idea that is by no means remotely locked down by anyone actually involved with it. Still, it was enough to cause some to declare it at another site I was at as "another shot in the war against white men."
Seriously? It's a frickin' fictional character from another planet!
Oh, when will the poor, oppressed white man ever catch a break?
Pretty colors and power fantasies, with no understanding of the morality that underlies them.
This is spot-on, and the source of so many of our troubles as a species.
And let there be no doubt -- it's true even of progressives. For us, the inhuman subclass is conservatives, above whom we feel elevated by our intelligence and enlightenment. There indeed seems to be a universal impulse always to feel "better" than somebody else.
when he stops thinking he is better than poor oppressed non white people...
Oh, when will the poor, oppressed white man ever catch a break?
I see one person who is conservative (Kirk Prime) and one person whose background I don't know, but it doesn't sound particularly liberal (PhilyB), opposing Jordan playing our Earth's Superman for two different but equally stupid reasons that had nothing to do with politics. So can you spare us the political rant and let us have a normal discussion before Flying Spaghetti Monster gets here and whines about forced diversity? Just one goddamn time I'd like to talk about a comic book or genre movie without it becoming a political throwdown.
Anyway, Jordan is fantastic in Creed and Black Panther and he certainly has the build for the role, so if this pans out, I look forward to it. No knock on any previous Supes like Cavill or Routh, who I enjoyed as well.
And in answer to PhilyB's complaint, lots of people who were treated unjustly by a government and society go on to serve roles within or upholding the aspired to ideals of that government and society while trying to improve the situation for their own people and lead by example. Japanese-American internees who fought in the war. Native Americans who served despite often living in impoverished conditions on reservations back home. Black soldiers who served in segregated units led by white officers where they were still treated like second class citizens. And more often than not, since they felt they have to prove themselves to a bigoted society and stand out, their units are some of the most exceptional and heroic and decorated in the military. Seems perfectly in keeping with the ethos of Superman to me.
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Or even franchises like Star Trek, Star Wars and Doctor Who, where social justice is basically the MO for the protagonists of those franchises, and always has been.
x 1,000,000.
I think DC is in an interesting position where they seem to have realized that they can't just copy Marvel, and so they are instead trying to take more risks, which so far have paid off more often than not. If these rumors are true, then I hope that they're doing more than just a black Clark Kent. There wouldn't be anything wrong with that, but we've seen his story often enough. I'm not a comics reader, but I understand that there are multiple black Supermen who have different backstories. Perhaps they could even do what they did with Joker and invent an entirely new character who stands for the same things the classic Superman does.
I can get behind the idea of Michael B. Jordan as Superman, but that's all that it is right now. Just an idea that is by no means remotely locked down by anyone actually involved with it. Still, it was enough to cause some to declare it at another site I was at as "another shot in the war against white men."
Seriously? It's a frickin' fictional character from another planet!
whitey is fragile.
True, so those shaping the message/image have no intention of treating a certain group (in this case black males) either in a realistic manner (recognizing his unique worldview / experiences) instead of using him for the tokenized "See? We put one in here"/"aren't we progressive" flavor credits or barely using them at all, unless its in a stereotypical, truly offensive manner.
Some never want that assessment pointed in their direction, as they have convinced themselves that they are ideologically correct about all things, so any information challenging that (AKA the truth) rankles them to the core. This is a problem seen from the random person on the street, undoubtedly certain social media circles to writers and producers.
Yes, that's a significant part of it--meaning who is creating the content,, hence the reason there's a clear as day reason why the characters on a series like Black Lightning--with all of their differing views, are among the most authentic in dealing with black American life (even in a superhero setting) ever seen in a fantasy series. The creators / primary showrunners--Salim and Mara Brock Akil (along with Oz Scott) --and much of the writing staff are black, so they are not paying lip service, or any form of tokenism with the world they've created (which is far different than the original Tony Isabella comic). That cannot be said of black characters on many fantasy TV series, where they are there for that aforementioned "flavor"--a glorified credit and not much else, yet producers will crow on and on about how important "diversity" is to their productions. Diversity in image only, which is as good as not representing this group at all.
I have a question, and it might sound kind of bad, but it's something I've been curious to get a black person's perspective on. When it comes to TV shows and movies, would you feel it's better for representation to have a black person there who doesn't really deal with things from a black perspective, or to just not have them there at all? Now, in this hypothetical situation there wouldn't be anything offensive about the character, they would just be there. I started wondering about this when you were talking about how Supergirl handled James.
Speaking only for myself as a black male, any representation is better than no representation, because not being there at all is far worse. Believe it or not, I didn't have a problem with how Supergirl handled James--first and foremost, he was written as a man who just happened to be black. His ethnicity represented the diversity of the world we live in, and that's important, but he was never there to deal with things from the black perspective. That was something I understood even before the debut of the first episode, so I was cool with James from the get-go. Would I have liked them do more with James, sure, but he did contribute to the show while he was there.
In a very real sense, it all depends on the story being told. If a story demands a character's background/ethnicity be a focus, then that's what it'll be. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. But it's always better to be shown as being there than not. That's why the character of Uhura was so important to black people in the original Star Trek. Yes, there were episodes in which she only said "Hailing frequencies are open, sir," but she did show the diversity and inclusiveness of that world. And sometimes that overall aspect alone is the most important thing to take away from TV shows and movies with POC characters.
The black presence/accurate representation is not served with a character who is black "in image only"/a flavor just so showrunners can claim the production is diverse. That's tokenism, which is how the Olsen character was handled on Supergirl. Race in society/how one moves through it while dealing with daily perceptions is always there. It never goes away, whether one is speaking in the social or professional sense. That's why Black Lightning is and to a lesser degree, the sadly cancelled Luke Cage was a watershed production for black identity/representation in TV fantasy. There's no excuse for any modern series--particularly one where the identity of everyone else is explored, yet when it comes to the black character--no,
If TV series which launched over 50 years ago took consistent, deep dives into black identity/representation in society --such as Clarence Williams III's Linc Hayes character from The Mod Squad (1968-73) or Don Mitchell's Mark Sanger from Ironside (1967-75) at a time when race in the nation and on TV was so explosive that most producers--even in changing late 60s TV still avoided, it shines a damning light on modern day productions where (as noted earlier) every other group has hours/episodes dedicated to their lives/identities/place in society, yet a black male character does not.
I'm not fond of Jordan due to the admittedly relatively minor reason that he was very dismissive of Fantastic Four comic book fans or at least purists. He initially said of the fans who disliked his race-changing casting as Johnny Storm, "They'll watch it anyway" and then later, even when he was trying to be more conciliatory to them, suggesting or saying he could see why they would dislike it, that they should step away from their computers and take a walk in sunlight, his more conciliatory take being that they're way too obsessive and spend all their time online and next to none in the real world.
