Is the Federation a "cashless" society or not?

[tomswift2002]

Poop gets made into boots.

And the urine would be made into coffee.

 

[Tenacity]

And the urine would be made into coffee.

And coffee back into urine (inside the body), thereby completing the endless cycle.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Defective children in the mirror universe would be destroyed in the womb or soon after birth by the state (or by the Bashir's themselves). As many repeated pregnancies as it took to product a normal child, who would be named Julian.

The prolitariate are going to stop going to alliance doctors or doctors at all when they notice that every one who goes into a hospital never comes out.

Mirror Julian was angry, yelly, punchy and sexy. A complete different person, he barely thought about his actions, and sealed the deal on Jadzia.

 

[BillJ]

It is not.

 

[Mister Spock]

My basic idea is that in the Federation, all your basic needs are met - you're given rent-free accomodation, food, clothing, education and medical care.

However, you would still have some form of commerce for non-essentials. For example you'd have artists to buy unique paintings from and chefs to prepare unique and exotic dishes to eat.

As society and technology have come to the point where there isn't a need for people to engage in wage slavery jobs or difficult, poorly paid labour, theoretically people would work in the fields they want to and not take the first job available to them.

 

[Nyotarules]

My basic idea is that in the Federation, all your basic needs are met - you're given rent-free accomodation, food, clothing, education and medical care.

However, you would still have some form of commerce for non-essentials. For example you'd have artists to buy unique paintings from and chefs to prepare unique and exotic dishes to eat.

As society and technology have come to the point where there isn't a need for people to engage in wage slavery jobs or difficult, poorly paid labour, theoretically people would work in the fields they want to and not take the first job available to them.

And if you want to upgrade to a fancy house, beachfront property or a vineyard, then you earn mega extra credits, trade in your basic citizen income for a career in Starfleet and climb the ranks to Captain or Admiral or start a business and becme rich like TAS Carter Winston.
Unless Earth's WW3 wiped out all royalty, aristocracy, families of billionaires there would still be people with inherited weath.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You ask for a moon. You tend an observatory, or mine, or power plant, and you get a mansion on beach... After you take a 5 year course to make sure you're qualified to look after that observatory, mine or power plant. Of course you don't have to go to the university extension if you're already spent 5 years in Star Fleet as an enlisted crewman, becuase then there's an assumption that you can do anything. Stafleet is a polytechnic.

Human on human there is no money.

Federation on Federation there might be money, sometimes.

Federation on alien there is money.

 

[Tenacity]

My basic idea is that in the Federation, all your basic needs are met - you're given rent-free accomodation, food, clothing, education and medical care.

I think (head canon) that it would be more endless employment possibilities. The populace would enjoy near 100% employment. then you would then use your wages to obtain housing, essentials, transportation, medical care, advanced education, etc. So many opportunities that businesses would have trouble finding enough people, labor would be in demand.

You join Starfleet, Starfleet will pay you and provide medical/food/shelter. Starfleet would educate you in a agreed upon profession, in return you agree to a certain time period of service.

Many people (non Starfleet) might obtain their education with a similar agreement.

Joseph Sisko would either provide medical benefits, or his employees would take care of medical needs with a portion of their wages.

Robert Picard would have a small regular work force, and hire additional seasonal workers to harvest his grapes (he would insist they be hand picked).

 

[Tim Thomason]

I wrote this for recently for a similar question on Quora, but I'll repost it here:


Well, maybe yes…and no. This is what I think:

Okay, there is no “money” (certainly not physical money, which was likely what Kirk was referring too) - nor is there a *need* for money, physical or otherwise, to get by.

But “credits” of some kind do exist, and have been referred to. Doubtless something electronic, like Bitcoin.

Okay, let’s step back. See, we are thinking in terms of the *current* economic paradigm. But Star Trek is 200, 300 and 400 years in the future - current economic systems like capitalism and communism will seem as quaint and outdated - and barbaric - as feudalism is to us today.Trek exists in what is called a “post-scarcity” economy. This is possible because automation and synthesizers and replicators can make anything needed. And in space, resources are far from scarce - raw matter can be found in any asteroid…water…metals…carbon…organic molecules even (forget that old scifi trope about advanced star-traveling alien races needing to conquer Earth for our water and other resources and such, that’s just silly.) You just need robots - that can make more robots - to mine and shape those resources.

So, as a Federation citizen, your *basic* needs are met, you have “free” housing and education and clothing and food and medical care and some travel credit. Federation technology is just so bloody advanced, that this costs virtually nothing for society to provide - and doesn’t benefit society as a whole NOT to provide. (Poverty = social instability.)

But, if, say, you want more…say a nice big house, or your own private spaceship or private asteroid…or you want to buy an expense work of art, or something artisanally made (hand crafted) - such as a bottle of Chateau Picard to enjoy over a dinner at Sisko’s…you would exchange credits for them. (Or your would barter.)

I’ll bet that every Federation citizen also gets some base allotment of credits every so often. A “guaranteed minimum wage” of some sort, like some Democratic presidential candidates are talking about now. (Jake mentioned using up all his “transporter credits” once.) Note: this would “cost” the Federation virtually *nothing* to provide. They are that “wealthy”. Resource wise.

And Starfleet officer very likely earn even more credits for joining Starfleet (but you aren’t going to get *rich* on the job, you aren’t doing it for the money, you are doing it because it’s what you love.)

But like I said, you don’t NEED credits to survive. And if you want credits, well, you create things yourself, to trade for either credits, or something else someone has. Or you work for someone who needs your skills, so you can earn more credits. Credits to get the extra things. (Like handmade food and clothing, instead of just replicated knock-offs.)

It’s very likely that as automation takes over more and more manufacturing jobs…and new technologies like robots and 3D printing and nanotechnology and biotechnology come online, we may have to adopt such a system ourselves. People will still be able to work - and likely many people will choose to; to become artists or artisans or explorers or protectors or doctors or statespersons or to just own their own vineyard….or just to get more stuff. But nobody *has* too.

This system isn’t socialism *or* capitalism…it’s “post scarcity”.

The Federation credit economy would have to be strictly controlled, just like the US economy, and most other fiat economies today. The US can't (or, rather, shouldn't) just print out billions and billions of dollars and hand them out, and the UFP can't just wake up and say there's 20 quadrillion more credits for everyone to share. The credit as you describe is equal to any other floating fiat currency, but tied in value to a specific substance. If it was bitcoin, then it would be outside of government control and even more at the whims of the imaginary market.

A post-scarcity economy runs into an inflation problem with scarce objects (land, art, the non-robotic service industry), although people will fight back against any artificial scarcity.

 

[Christopher]

A post-scarcity economy runs into an inflation problem with scarce objects (land, art, the non-robotic service industry), although people will fight back against any artificial scarcity.

How scarce are those things, though, in a civilization that has hundreds of planets and trillions of inhabitants? Not to mention that, without the need to devote their lives to drudge labor just to feed and house themselves, a lot more people would have the freedom to devote their lives to art or service, so that would make those things far less scarce in proportion to the population size.

 

[Kor]

Art in general won't be scarce. But there would certainly be discerning collectors who are dead-set on acquiring specific one-of-a-kind pieces, such as a newly discovered Picasso, a lost Surakian Kir'Shara, a 4D telekinetic sculpture by the late Zqfmgb of Xjjxxjjxjxjj, or an android with a positronic brain.

Kor

 

[Christopher]

Art in general won't be scarce. But there would certainly be discerning collectors who are dead-set on acquiring specific one-of-a-kind pieces, such as a newly discovered Picasso, a lost Surakian Kir'Shara, a 4D telekinetic sculpture by the late Zqfmgb of Xjjxxjjxjxjj, or an android with a positronic brain.

But with countless planets to choose from, there would be a huge number of "specific one-of-a-kind pieces," and only certain collectors would be so narrowly fixated on any given one. I think it'd balance out. Especially since most people in the Federation don't prize the acquisition of wealth or have any desire to feel superior in status to other people based on their material possessions. The kind of people (like Kivas Fajo) who'd still be obsessed with owning stuff and being rich would be much more rare than they are today. Probably more of them would be like Carter Winston, accumulating wealth not for the sake of bragging rights but because it would enable them to do good. Wealth would be understood as a means to an end rather than an end in itself.

 

[Tallguy]

Art in general won't be scarce. But there would certainly be discerning collectors who are dead-set on acquiring specific one-of-a-kind pieces, such as a newly discovered Picasso, a lost Surakian Kir'Shara, a 4D telekinetic sculpture by the late Zqfmgb of Xjjxxjjxjxjj, or an android with a positronic brain.

Kor

What are we calling "art"? Art isn't scarce now.

But yes, you should be able to make as many absolutely authentic Mona Lisas as you wish. Would someone prevent this? If I worked my whole life on a sculpture would someone be able to replicate it? And of course one could visit the Sistine Chapel in a holodeck. So say there is some throwback fanatic who wants the REAL one. How would they go about getting it?

Is there a cost involved with travel? If I've nothing better to do (and I just like the experience) can I summer in The Protectorate of Wisconsin (Old Earth) and winter on Vulcan? Every year? I'm thinking of the story about the fellow who bought unlimited miles on an airline and used to go to Paris for lunch and then home again int the US that night. Can we do stuff like that, if we feel like spending the time?

Another thing I just thought of that is scarce: People. For some reason Jean-Luc Picard is scarce and is sought after. As is Beverly Crusher. These people are at the top top top of their game. Wasn't Picard going to die when he was having his heart replaced until Pulaski rushed in to save him? Weren't there lots of other doctors who could perform this (we were told) routine procedure?

 

[Christopher]

Another thing I just thought of that is scarce: People. For some reason Jean-Luc Picard is scarce and is sought after. As is Beverly Crusher. These people are at the top top top of their game. Wasn't Picard going to die when he was having his heart replaced until Pulaski rushed in to save him? Weren't there lots of other doctors who could perform this (we were told) routine procedure?

Expertise is more scarce on the frontiers of space than it would be on Earth or Vulcan or another Federation heartworld.

 

[Tallguy]

Expertise is more scarce on the frontiers of space than it would be on Earth or Vulcan or another Federation heartworld.

Which makes them scarce. And does Earth have too many?

We keep saying "scarcity" instead of "supply and demand". And we keep coming up with non-replicator-able things that have greater demand than supply.

Also: If Cashless = post-money, are we post-barter?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Which makes them scarce. And does Earth have too many?

We keep saying "scarcity" instead of "supply and demand". And we keep coming up with non-replicator-able things that have greater demand than supply.

Also: If Cashless = post-money, are we post-barter?

Nog was always explaining the great material continuum to somebody.

How can you barter, if everything belongs to everyone?

 

[Christopher]

Which makes them scarce.

In a certain context. The point is, it's a mistake to assume that what we see on Star Trek is typical of the Federation, because we don't see the Federation most of the time -- we see Starfleet personnel exploring beyond its borders. It would be like trying to judge life in the United States based solely on M*A*S*H and China Beach.

So yes, there is scarcity, commerce, etc. in the parts of the galaxy where Starfleet operates. That does not tell us what things are like for civilians in Federation territory proper.

We keep saying "scarcity" instead of "supply and demand".

The point is that a post-scarcity economy has unlimited supply, which means there's no need for high prices as a mechanism to limit demand.

And we keep coming up with non-replicator-able things that have greater demand than supply.

I still say that assumption fails to take into account the unimaginable vastness of the Federation and the galaxy beyond. I don't think as many things would be as scarce as you're suggesting. I agree that, yes, there would be occasional circumstances where supply would be finite (e.g. openings for using public transporters) and that some kind of exchange, monetary, or credit system makes sense in those contexts, but I don't believe that invalidates the whole idea of a post-scarcity economy that is not reliant on money as a universal necessity. It's just a secondary aspect of that economy.

Also: If Cashless = post-money, are we post-barter?

Evidently not, because we've seen that barter is alive and well at least on the frontier (e.g. Cyrano Jones and the K-7 bartender).

 

[Kor]

What are we calling "art"? Art isn't scarce now.

But yes, you should be able to make as many absolutely authentic Mona Lisas as you wish. Would someone prevent this? If I worked my whole life on a sculpture would someone be able to replicate it? And of course one could visit the Sistine Chapel in a holodeck. So say there is some throwback fanatic who wants the REAL one. How would they go about getting it?

Some artists might decide not to allow their pieces to be replicated willy-nilly. Some version of copyright law would probably still apply, undoubtedly updated to apply to the replicator industry, for the life of the artist plus seventy years or whatever, etc., etc.

I saw a painting I really liked by a local indigenous artist in my area. It was being sold for $300, a little out of my budget for that month. So I figured I would wait until next payday. Unfortunately, by then it was gone. All of his paintings are different, and he doesn't sell cheaper prints of any of them. Bye-bye painting.

Even in a society that doesn't have money (which may or may not be true in 24th-century Earth or the Federation ), it's still the prerogative of the artist as creator of the work, to be in control of how/if their work is reproduced and distributed, for whatever reasons they may see fit.

Kor

 

[Tallguy]

Evidently not, because we've seen that barter is alive and well at least on the frontier (e.g. Cyrano Jones and the K-7 bartender).

That wasn't bartering that was haggling. At no point was the bartender going to give Cyrano something in trade other than credits.

Unless when I go to Circle K for a coffee that's considered bartering. (But that's TOS when they clearly had money.)

Even in a society that doesn't have money (which may or may not be true in 24th-century Earth or the Federation ), it's still the prerogative of the artist as creator of the work, to be in control of how/if their work is reproduced and distributed, for whatever reasons they may see fit.

I wasn't sure if it was mentioned on DS9 or it was mentioned by someone talking about DS9: Suing someone. (It was when Quark was trying to get a Kira copy in his holosuite.) But since we're brushing up against that here: What's the penalty for copyright abuse? Nowadays someone can go to court over using someone else's art or writing. And that can be settled with money. If you don't have money (or it doesn't matter) then what's a useful deterrent? Jail? If you took my one-of-a-kind work of art and replicated it and released to the masses, your jail time doesn't help me, can I get damages? If I'm an engineering whiz kid and Starfleet takes my idea and I don't want them to, what's my recourse?

Are all of these scenarios too low minded for the 24th century being? (That was Roddenberry's answer to the what if of leaving the Federation: No one would want to do that.)

 

[JD]

This thread is really making me think that it is kind of a shame we never saw any of the shows really take a deep dive into how the Federation actually works as a society. At least the books have fleshed it out a bit more.
Going by the shows alone, I think we probably know more about the Klingons, Cardassians, and Bajorans than we do about the Federation.