Was Riker insubordinate during "Chain of Command"?
- Thread starter AdamNY
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Yeah, clearly he was playing hunches, or taking a gamble. Those were the only options TO play. He's calculated what gamble to take & took it. What her comment suggested wasn't that he had doubts about his course of action. She suggested he had doubts about himself, which (Apart from being wrong imho) in itself is a very troubling thing to be told about your crisis leader.
It says this is a person who isn't up to being the lead in the crisis, & the person she told was the guy in position to challenge that directly... which is what he shortly thereafter did. There's no two ways around it. Troi helped push Riker into challenging the captain's authority, for which he was relieved, because he was already chomping at the bit to do it anyhow
^ I kind of think you have it out for Troi. Troi commented a fact — that Jellico was flying by the seat of his pants and didn’t necessary know what he was doing. She’s both an empath and an expert psychologist. Riker acted of his own free will. And it’s debatable whether he was right.
Do I remember correctly when I say that it was suggested at some point that Tom would replace Will?
EDIT - There seems to be a topic about this on this forum from 2009.
I think Jellico making the changes - both the shift rotations and replacing Livingston with his son's drawings - are both an example of firmly placing a soldier in command of Enterprise as well as being a message to the Cardassian Intelligence community that Picard is no longer captain, giving the Federation plausible deniability.
Yes, thet were thinking to shake things up a bit, essentially demoting Riker and promoting someone else as first officer.
From Memory Alpha:
"In the early stages of writing the episode, the production team briefly considered killing off Will Riker and having Thomas join the USS Enterprise-D's crew as his "replacement". Tom Riker would have replaced Data at operations and Data would have been promoted to first officer. The idea was quickly abandoned, partly due to the then-tentative plans to bring TNG's cast to the big screen." (Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion)
I think the problem might be that the episode was leading the viewer again. When she said it, it came with some ominous sounding background music. Something had to be wrong with Jellico because his style of command. He was going to break down. Or eventually be relieved of duty.
She would never say that about Picard in that way with the same background music.
I'm actually a bit torn on this one. I work in this type of structure. Who wouldn't want a boss that'll speak for you and tell some demanding, unrealistic higher up that what they expect is unrealistic? Doesn't he deserve a little credit for being considerate enough to do that?
With that being said, still, common on, that crew was borderline unprofessional. They were pushing it as it was.
Riker, a C.O, refusing to follow a direct command. Troi, an officer, wearing very casual clothes on duty. Officers sneering and being unmotivated and argumentative at a briefing.
Geordi wants to believe that a Cardassian fleet was hiding in a nebula because of scientific research. Crusher was angry because she had to get sickbay ready in case of causalities, because she doesn't want a confrontation.
The ironic thing is in the end, the episode made Jellico the hero. He was right.
Actually, Troi commented an opinion, her interpretation of his mental state, & to no one's surprise, did so quite vaguely. In truth, Jellico was 100% right about all he did, because at no point was there any mention that anything he'd done backfired or went wrong.
Without exception, his decisions prevented a war, thwarted a conspiracy by a possible enemy, lived up to every expectation of his superiors, & saved the life of an otherwise doomed spy, and since anyone's objections or demands were largely contradictory, they were very likely wrong... Especially Riker's.
So not only was Jellico right, but he might have been the only person who knew exactly what to do, to succeed in this scenario, much like Nechayev had claimed. Is he 100% sure everything will go his way? Of course not. Under these circumstances, no one could be. They can only make their best call, even if it's destined to fail, which he earlier admits to Picard could... that there may be no path that averts a war. However, if there is a way to succeed, this is it, and of that he gives no indication that he thinks that much is ever in doubt. He literally makes the moves they brought him in there to make.
I honestly don't have it out for Troi. Throughout the rest of the episode, I think she's just fine, doing her job, not to blame for minutia like other captains' uniform policies. She behaves better than anyone else on the crew... until that remark, which I think was just her knee jerk reaction to their timberwolves chat, that she clearly didn't approve of, & frankly, what she thinks about brinkmanship with Cardassians probably couldn't fill a matchbook
Her comment to Riker amounts to suggesting the captain's judgement should be questioned, & if I were him? I'd have forced her to explain herself after a remark like that "WTF does THAT mean, lady? Are you telling me this guy is completely full of shit, & playing games with all our lives? or are you just offhandedly mouthing off that he's not as cool & collected as he's displaying? because if it's the latter? well dammit, that's every goddamn commander who ever had a standoff to stand, & you should holster that loose lip, because you're basically inciting mutiny"
One more script rewrite might have worked wonders. If Riker would have acted like a real first officer and been willing to piss everybody off (the way an exec should be trained to do if need be) it could have been a great episode. As it was, Jellico was just a little too good and Riker just didn't measure up. Everyone finally came around to getting with Jellico's program, except Riker. If they could have had Riker kicking ass and taking names to get Jellico's wishes carried out, then had Jellico step in shit by firing Riker in a fit of pique over something out of Riker's control, the final confrontation where Jellico went crawling to Riker would have been a killer. The final conversation between Jellico and Geordi was very good. It showed that Jellico wasn't a total prick, that Geordi was a professional and that they really did respect each other. Geordi's calm, reasonable argument that Riker should fly the mission would have carried a lot of impact, because Jellico would have had to acknowledge in some way that he had overstepped and Riker could have been at least a little magnanimous about the vindication. If it were a standalone episode that didn't contradict so much backstory it would have been far better. There were so many good things that Jellico did: putting Troi in a real uniform, getting a ship designed for exploration onto a war footing on short notice, not to mention saving Picard's ass with some deep space poker playing worthy of Jim Kirk at his ballsiest should have made him one of the real heroes of the series. As it was, the writing for Riker was deeply flawed. The final scene where no one acknowledges Jellico's gracious parting comment also went clunk. He had a job to do and he did it. He prevented a war, saved the Captain and returned the ship to Picard in one piece. He deserved better than that.
Given that she's an empath and an expert psychologist, that means something.
Why do you say "to no one's surprise"? Because it's a TV show and you expect them to be dramatic about it? Or, again, because you have it out for her? Your tone makes me think it's the latter.
Yeah, that's part of why the episode didn't make any sense – it painted Jellico as a Mary Sue winning in every instance with the Cardassians despite it being ostensibly about his leadership style being problematic.
It was really strange seeing the senior staff leaving so much to be desired while Captain Jerk Store is both a fraud and hero.
They brought Jellico in because he's the expert on the Cardassians. That doesn't mean anything he does in regard to them is the right move. Nor does it mean that he couldn't drop the ball with his own crew. Isn't there some quote about wringing failure from the hands of victory, or something? Say the situation devolved into war. How well is the command ship going to do if the disjointed crew's lost all confidence in him just as he got them there?
Okay, and that's your opinion vs hers.
Out for her.
Out for her.
You're making a point. But 1) yeah, that's kind of what she's saying, and 2) Out for her.
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I think it's interesting that the regular crew and its typical harmony is often condemned as too perfectly idealized, to the point of seeming non-human, yet when there was big conflict between a regular character and new captain the regular is seen as both unprofessional and unlikeable.
I guess both are possible rather than completely contradictory, there could have been more conflict but of a lesser degree more often, but it does show that, especially when depicting a professional organization, conflict can easily seem excessive and unprofessional and make the characters seem unlikeable.
Even Jellico did refer to it, though maybe being diplomatic, as a uniform, just not standard uniform.
I thought that was very human and not quite unprofessional, she thought he was too cavalier about starting or having a confrontation, even a mass conflict, and it's OK to vent a little about that.
The show was, I think, a lot more willing to have the regulars be in the wrong or to be reasonable toward both sides of a conflict, ambiguous about who was more right, than I think a lot of viewers give it credit for. And yes in the "Chain of Command" duo Jellico was shown as both more right than the regulars about the Cardassians and an effective captain against them and ultimately preventing the war.
I guess both are possible rather than completely contradictory, there could have been more conflict but of a lesser degree more often, but it does show that, especially when depicting a professional organization, conflict can easily seem excessive and unprofessional and make the characters seem unlikeable.
Even Jellico did refer to it, though maybe being diplomatic, as a uniform, just not standard uniform.
I thought that was very human and not quite unprofessional, she thought he was too cavalier about starting or having a confrontation, even a mass conflict, and it's OK to vent a little about that.
The show was, I think, a lot more willing to have the regulars be in the wrong or to be reasonable toward both sides of a conflict, ambiguous about who was more right, than I think a lot of viewers give it credit for. And yes in the "Chain of Command" duo Jellico was shown as both more right than the regulars about the Cardassians and an effective captain against them and ultimately preventing the war.
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The problem in this case is that nothing Jellico did or said was out of line or unreasonable, so the conflict didn't seem excessive and unprofessional, it was.
Jellico came to do a job and did it while Riker whined and complained that it was hard which was really annoying. Despite all the conflict Jellico proved to be the bigger man by going to Riker to ask him to fly the shuttle and Riker decides to put on his smarmiest asshole grin and makes Jellico basically beg instead of doing what's best for the mission. Riker SUCKED big time in this episode.
Then Jellico succeeds at everything, prevents a war, shames the cardassians and as a cherry on top gets Picard back which starfleet didn't seem to care about, he was clearly seen as expendable. He thanks the crew when he leaves and they act like he smells and has space cooties.
This is the incident that really tipped the scales for me, and caused me to join the Jellico appreciation society.
It means she has some insight... some. To what extent, no one knows
I'm just saying this isn't the 1st time we have a limited display of how specific her ability is. Vague is a fair judgment, certainly capable of error or misjudging
The episode makes perfect sense, so long as you're willing to accept the possibility that Riker & Troi could be wrong about the guy, & I don't see any reason why they couldn't be. It's not an indictment of their characters to say they might have it wrong this time, & all evidence otherwise suggests he is doing things correctly.
You really don't have any ground to say I'm "out for her", because clearly you're out... for him. Otherwise, prove to me he's a fraud, beyond her single 3 word, offhand & nondescript claim.
Everything he did played exactly as he planned, and he was brought there to do exactly that. How is he in any way fraudulent then? because his style is less likable? That's got nothing to do with its validness. This isn't the only time he's ever done this. These are strategies that he's employed previously. So it isn't just luck that he gets it all 100% right.
"Out for her" implies I have a direct issue with her... Troi. My issue isn't with her. It's with one inappropriate thing she said, and what impact it could have. How is requiring some kind of qualification of her remark being "Out for her?" She is suggesting the captain's judgement ought to be questioned, no one is making her qualify that, & then later, the man she said it to outright challenges his authority, with hugely unfortunate results. Her "Advice", as the ship's counselor, on that bridge, could've very well instigated him to do that
I realize we live in a current climate where requiring some to be responsible for, or qualify their remarks is treated as though it's a personal attack on them, but I assure you, it's not. I'm not coming after her personally just because she ought to back up what she's saying about raising the issue of questioning the captain's judgement to his direct subordinate. To not do so is reckless
Saying which? That his uncertainty means his judgement is unreliable, or just that he's not as sure of himself as Riker thinks he is, but it's still on par with any other person, who'd find themselves in a similar standoff of brinkmanship, with lives on the line. Picard has strapped on a "Poker Face" plenty of times, while not knowing if it will pan out
Point is, if she thinks his judgement is wholly unreliable, she has a duty to do more than just make one verbal dig, and walk away. However, if she only means he's just a normal man, handling a gamble of a situation, like any other captain would, then she has a duty to qualify what she's saying, so that it isn't so reckless as to suggest the former to his subordinate... OR not make that kind of statement at all, because it undermines the chain of command
It's not specific but her opinion is more than worth stating, given her being both an empath and an expert. I'm saying that either of those makes it worth stating maybe more than most others in a room; the two together...yikes.
What's strange is that the episode makes sense for another show. It's a great watch, but it's like watching a foreign crew.
1) Your being out for her is a separate point to whether or not I have it out for him. 2) I have it out for him insofar as I'm trying to make sense of the episode. He's clearly meant to be the baddie (different tier of baddie than the Cardies but a baddie all the same) yet everything seems to work out for him. The baddie lives to bad another day.
I wish they brought him back. We need further information. He might have been interesting on DS9 too. They were looking for ways to make the Federation the bad guys. Well...
I'm not going to "prove" anything to you.
But if you'd like to go over some points from the episode (without my having rewatched it recently) I remember that he's actually flying by the seat of his pants. He's the Starfleet expert on the Cardassians, and, as you note, he's employed these tactics with them before, but Troi is saying that they're not as legit as he's presenting.
Per La Forge, he's straining the Engineering department to its limit, which gets him into readiness for Minos Korva, but leaves them maybe fried if his plan fails and they're suddenly at war.
Re Riker, he's supposed to be the best first officer in the fleet, offered his own command multiple times, eventually becomes an admiral in the series timeline, yet Jellico is in a pissing match with him. He says of him:
"...I don't like you, either. You are arrogant and closed-minded. You need to control everything and everyone. You don't provide an atmosphere of trust, and you don't inspire these people to go out of their way for you. You've get everybody wound up so tight there's no joy in anything. I don't think you're a particularly good Captain."
I buy that. I think Cox played that.
I thought I broke down why I thought it sounded like you had it out for her in the last reply. I don't know if I have the interest in trying to break it down further.
Then your problem is with everyone else, not her for stating her expert opinion.
I think he was following his own judgement. The fact that the crew didn't mutiny, or that she didn't take his side, leads me to think he went too far. I blame him for jumping the gun or his captain for losing control of the situation.
My eyes widened during the scene too, wanting more, but it's the way the scene played out, not her fault for speaking truth.
They knew something was off about Picard in "Allegiance" but they didn't challenge him until they were absolutely sure. I thought they were doing the same here, then Riker lost his temper.
I rewatched the scene. Riker starts off by asking if there's anything he could do for Jellico. He begins by trying to help. Jellico feels the need to drop ranks, Riker replies in kind. Jellico says he won't order Riker to fly the mission (I don't necessarily understand why not; I think Riker would have flown to the best of his ability either way). Riker smiles because all Jellico has to do is ask for help (what he should have done all along) and Riker (and the crew) would oblige. Jellico didn't respect his crew until just that moment, and I can't say that I blame Riker for appreciating that moment.
I could be wrong. Riker could just be some hotshot pilot the cap'n needs...he could be Tom Cruise in Top Gun...all ego and bravado – young, dumb, and full of come, with a set of pilots' wings. But by the character as we've known him and by Frakes' delivery, it doesn't make sense to me to read it that way.
Jellico was a fine captain for however much of a dick that he was. He clearly had more combat expertise than the rest of the crew did, including Riker.
His character wouldn't have existed in Roddenberry Trek, because he'd be too divisive and humans weren't supposed to ever have conflict. It's a big reason why the series was better in season 6 than it was in season 1 or 2.
Riker was right to question him, but not to be a complete rogue.
Data even said this to Worf when he took command when Picard and Riker were Baran's prisoners. Worf questioned Data's decisions and publically called him out. Data took Worf aside and told him that he was out of line and Worf apologized. Jellico needed to take that approach instead of being an abrasive tyrant 30 seconds after he beamed aboard.
Edward Jellico was a good captain, but he wasn't a good captain for The Enterprise, especially not in this scenario.
His character wouldn't have existed in Roddenberry Trek, because he'd be too divisive and humans weren't supposed to ever have conflict. It's a big reason why the series was better in season 6 than it was in season 1 or 2.
Riker was right to question him, but not to be a complete rogue.
Data even said this to Worf when he took command when Picard and Riker were Baran's prisoners. Worf questioned Data's decisions and publically called him out. Data took Worf aside and told him that he was out of line and Worf apologized. Jellico needed to take that approach instead of being an abrasive tyrant 30 seconds after he beamed aboard.
Edward Jellico was a good captain, but he wasn't a good captain for The Enterprise, especially not in this scenario.
Stating her opinion is well within her right. Making a vague comment about the captain's competency, that can be taken 2 different ways, in a crisis & tense time, could recklessly taint attitudes.
I admit it's a departure for TNG, but a reasonable one. IMHO the intent was ambiguity, for a change, blurring the lines, & it's not an entirely alien dynamic for them... rare, but it has come up, our heroes not always being right about everything. That's why it's a favorite of mine, inviting us to challenge our rose colored interpretation of the leads. To not do that misses the whole point, & I could imagine that would leave someone thinking the episode made no sense.
Calling him fraud & jerk doesn't sound unbiased imho. That you accuse me of bias toward her is certainly tainted if you have bias toward him. It's a matter of two characters discussed in one context, making it not an entirely separate point
See? I'd say this is 1 of the few times, that this guest character, for an intriguing change, is not meant to be the baddie. He's on our side, same interests, following the same guidelines, unlike a Pressman or Maxwell, who are definitively out of line. Jellico is by all metrics not out of line, doing exactly what everyone expects of him, except the hastily prepared crew he's dumped on. He's the expert captain in good standing... the one fully briefed. They're having to play catchup.
That's not what she said at all, nothing nearly that specific, & how would she know exactly how legitimate his calls are anyhow? Her only insight is into the man's emotional state, & not a full telepath, privy to his every nuanced thought. At best, she'd only probably know he's uncomfortable feeling about the brinkmanship he must play, & not showing it... That's the nature of brinkmanship. You don't show it, but if you're not uncomfortable about it, you're a psychopath. So of course he is.
Plus, I'd politely encourage you to rewatch the Jellico scenes, if you think he's flying by the seat of his pants. He's shown as 1 of the most prepared, and determined Starfleet officers ever depicted imho. He's got every move sketched out ahead of time. He's not only the new captain, he's the mission specific specialist, yet nobody wants to afford him the benefit of the doubt about that.
The reason for all the changes that strained everyone, were TO prepare the ship for a war, that he'd thought might be unavoidable. The Minos Korva thing was a variable that came later.
Yeah, see... Jellico isn't in a pissing match... because he's in charge. The guy doing all the pissing the whole time, is the other guy
I think Cox played that there's an ambiguity about the man that could be taken that way without it necessarily being true, because it may be more due to the circumstance than the man himself. It's a gray area the show is presenting. He also has pictures of his kid's elephant drawings kicking around. He functions exceptionally well with his senior officers, once Data & Geordi are the principal players, instead of the pissing match guy
Well, she only told Riker, & yes, I take issue with him on multiple points, among which we can add him not pressing her for some critical clarification of wtf she meant
That said, she too holds responsibility on that ship for the things she says in a mission context, and how she says them & the impact they will have, & there was nothing expertly communicated about that comment
I'd certainly agree that Riker is entirely responsible for his own actions. All I'm saying is the lady has a role on that ship, that role, advising, & vague advising can lead to this very kind of outcome.
Jellico offers Riker the opportunity to air out their differences so to move past them, because their last exchange was conflictual, & Riker knows that. He's not being helpful by avoiding that issue. He's being glib. Dropping ranks is for the benefit of the subordinate. Jellico doesn't need to drop them to tell Riker what he thinks. It's a courtesy.
Because Jellico doesn't know that about him & he'd not want to force someone to participate halfheartedly in such a sensitive task. Besides.. it's an opportunity to offer the man the chance he should be begging to have, to volunteer, seeing as how he was so adamant about doing something, that he got his butt relieved. Riker ought to be chomping at the bit to make something work out here. His mentor's life is on the line, while he rots in his quarters, apparently sulking & preening. You couldn't have stopped me from beating down Jellico's door to fly that mission. Old Will would rather wait to rub the boss's nose in his farts
"Would you please, if it isn't any inconvenience to you, help me save your mentor's life, & potentially prevent a war that could cost countless millions of lives. After all, I wouldn't want to get on your bad side, by actually expecting you to happily & dutifully adhere to the chain. of. command."
Does that work for you?
You’re on the edge of Trolling here. Knock it off.
